Waltham-Howard 12S, 21 jewel, Hunter

[mdloggins]

Recently received this one and just got it back from my watchmaker. Howard Co Boston engraved on movement with serial number H816098. The dial was with the watch when I got it, is double sunk but no maker's name on it. Maybe original? I had the watch put into a 14k hunter case I had. The watch itself wasn't in running order and has a "new," non-polished gold center wheel replacement. The old polished gold center wheel was badly mangled by some past watch gorilla. She runs now and keeps good time. I assume this watch was made for the original E Howard Co before acquisition by Keystone. I know there aren't many out there but not much else. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[richiec]

That is a 12 size made through a contract with Waltham around 1903, I believe Keystone already had acquired Howard at that time.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

These are very interesting watches. Waltham made movements in this bridge pattern for both the original E. Howard & Co. and for Keystone. I believe that this dial pattern is probably indicative of the movements made for Keystone.

 

[mdloggins]

Thank you both for the input. But, I'm still more than a little confused about the watch. I've looked at the dial under magnification and there doesn't appear to be any effort to scratch off/remove a name. None appears to have ever been their. Is this a dial used by the Keystone Howard or by Waltham somewhere? I've seen a single sunk porcelain dial on a couple of watches on this website with the "E. Howard Co, Boston" attribution. I've seen what appear to be 3 different versions of the movement on this website: 1) with an "E. Howard Co." stamping that is similar to the stamping for "21 jewels;" 2) with an "E. Howard Co" with what appears to be an engraving but different from the appearance of the stamping for "21 jewels;" and 3) with an area that appears to be an attempt to grind off some "E. Howard Co" stamping or engraving leaving only the clearly stamped "21 jewels." I'm at a loss to figure out why the 3 occurred or were necessary. Also, is there any indication or reasonable guesses as to how many of these watches are out there? Or, how were they marketed? Any help straightening me out on this would be really helpful.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

I've seen this dial on a few other 12 size and 16 size movements, but all are from the second or third contract. Some have the Howard name and some do not. The unnamed dials usually go with movements that have had the name removed.

These originally were stamped "E. Howard & Co." Note the ampersand. Many movements that had the name removed later had "E. Howard Co." ( no ampersand) hand engraved back on. I am pretty certain this was not done by Howard/Keystone.

I believe the name was ground off and the bridges re-damascened when Keystone had their own production under way and no longer wanted to offer the Waltham movements. I estimate there were no more than a few hundred made for Howard (hunting and open face).

 

[mdloggins]

Thanks Jerry, I missed the ampersand. So mine is a Keystone Howard. Do the serial numbers have anything to do with the contracts? Also, who would have engraved E. Howard Co back onto the movements. Are these watches that were returned to the Howard estate or whoever controlled the unfinished/unsold stock of old Howard watches and sold through whatever distribution system was remaining for Howard watches? I've heard that after the sale of the Howard name, old production E. Howard & Co watches continued to be finished and sold for the next 10 or 15 years. Would my watch have been included in that type of arrangement?

 

[Jerry Treiman]

I was away for a bit but am now home with access to all of my notes. Firstly, Mike, since your watch was made for Keystone by Waltham it is still a Waltham-Howard, not a Keystone-Howard. The latter would refer to movements made by Keystone in their re-fitted U.S. Watch Co. plant from 1905 onward. The serial numbers of the 12-size bridge models do not appear to directly relate to a specific contract. The first 12-size bridge models, made for E.Howard, were out of the same run as those for the second contract with Keystone and bear Howard serial numbers H816,xxx. If yours is a second contract watch it would date to 1904The third contract watches (12-size) have serial numbers in the 1-millions.


There really is no record of who re-engraved the movements, but most examples are from the later contracts and likely were unsold movements at the time that Keystone got their own movement production under way. I suspect that it was Keystone that removed the Howard name and refinished the plates so they could dispose of them. I speculate that it was one or two ambitiuous jobbers who acquired these movements and put the name back on to enhance their appeal. The later engraving was done by hand and not of the best quality, so I doubt it was done by a watch company. I don't believe any of these had anything to do with the late E.Howard movements that were finished and sold by the Howard Clock Co.

 

[mdloggins]

Jerry, great information as always. I think about 90%(or more) of what I have learned about 12 size gems I've learned from reading and re-reading your posts. Thanks!