Waltham Factory Sixis Tool

[DeweyC]

This was advertised as being used at the Waltham Factory which made no sense since it is a rounding up tool. But I bought it and it is indeed a puzzle. It is marked on the base "4th wheel" in script and the cutters were multiples of specific modules. The cutters were in envelopes marked "4th wheel, third wheel and minute wheel" and were all Carpano.

I am inclined to give the story the benefit of a doubt although the Swiss learned about modern machine FROM Waltham.

But in everything I ever read, I never encountered rounding up tools as production equipment in US factories. Yet, here it is.

Couple questions. Does anyone know of any photos or descriptions of Waltham using such equipment? Also, is there anyway to date the tool?

The tool is very small; that is W20 collet for scale. I have a clock size rounding up tool (George Jacob) that is easily twice as big. The Sixis is made form bronze castings.

It is on pine base with a dovetailed pine cover. The motor is an early 20th cent. Emerson (I would guess from the brush wiring it is prior to 1910) and the base has two screw holes from being screwed to a bench.

I have to make useful runners (5mm) I have only one but at least I have a pattern to copy.

 

[Dushan Grujich]

But in everything I ever read, I never encountered rounding up tools as production equipment in US factories. Yet, here it is.

G'Day Dewey!

I do remember while reading about Soviet acquisition of Dueber-Hampden factory that there were a number of rounding up tools which were used in the production process. Also, in his book "Technology of Watch Production", written in 1956, professor S.V. Tarasov gives detailed description of the use of rounding up tools in the process of "fitting". He also shows the rounding up machine designated S-61, which could have been made by Swiss as well, during that period, and prior to it, Soviets imported number of machines and tooling from Swiss.

This does not prove that Sixis were used in Waltham workshops but it leaves room for it, knowing that at least Dueber-Hampden used the rounding up tools.

Cheers, Dushan

 

[Jim DuBois]

A rounding up tool can provide a number of advantages in both clock and watchmaking. Firstly, using it properly will provide a very concentric assembly of arbor, pinion, and wheel. Since both the wheel and the pinion assembled on its arbor will have some tolerances when assembled, using a rounding up tool will reduce to near zero any tolerance build up and leave a more precision part. The wheel can be accurately sized and the size can be reduced minutely, say in tenths of thousandths of an inch, or less, if need be. And some claim a rounding up tool will leave a better finish on the tooth faces than as it comes from the milling cutters. So, I am not surprised to see the tool as shown by DeweyC . I would expect such a tool for each wheel/arbor/pinion assembly in a watch.

 

[DeweyC]

Dushan and Jim,

Thank you. Jim, most watchmakers know Waltham operated on selective fit rather than tolerance control as did Hamilton. So your observation adds weight to what the seller had to say.

I am still not fully accepting the story, but what you and Dushan say fit. I would like to find some contemporaneous evidence at Waltham and then it would be fun to learn more about the production differences between Hamilton and Waltham.

This tool is just one of those fun things that you run across once in a while. Other than smoking off some oil from the brushes, the motor even works.

Regards,

Dewey

 

[Jim DuBois]

It is the first rounding up tool I have seen attributed to Waltham. I don't know if he is still active or not but George Collard, out of Portland Maine, was the resident expert on all things Waltham factory machine related. He had a huge collection of machines out of the Waltham factory, I bought quite a number of such tools from him, and sold him a few Waltham machines also. The last I saw him was at the NAWCC nation in New Orleans, and that must have been 15 years ago. Hmmm, 2001, just looked it up. But, he could most likely supply more information than anyone else I know.

I don't have a clock sized rounding tool, but I was surprised at how efficient the watch sized tool I had was in slightly reducing tooth widths and wheel diameters, as well as generating really round and concentric assemblies. Good find DeweyC....have fun with it....

 

[DeweyC]

Jim,

Thanks. I will see if NAWCC can connect us. Here is a photo of the two side by side. Only used the Jacobs once or twice; but when you need it, nothing else will do.

 

[Dushan Grujich]

G'Day!

As an afterthought, knowing that Smithsonian Institution has actually paid for the translation of this unique book into English language, and by the words of late Rita Shenton (one of the foremost experts in horological literature), there is no other book on the subject written in such a detail. Thus it would perhaps be in order to give a link to a free download from Google.

Myself, I have a hard copy of the second edition, published in Moscow in 1963, in Russian language.

Thus, to download follow the link: Technology of Watch Production. Some 450 pages of invaluable information, even though the book has been written 1956, watches have not changed much.

Pages 201-202 are related to the topic of rounding up tools as used in watch production, explained as to how and why they are/were used.

Cheers

Dushan

 

[DeweyC]

Dushan,

THANK YOU! This book should be downloaded by anyone who aspires to be a horological machinist.

I am sending the download link to WOSTEP. I like how it explains probability, tolerances and processes right off the bat.

 

[Ian01]

Wow! That .pdf about watch manufacturing is insanely useful! what an amazing document!

 

[JackH]

G'Day!

As an afterthought, knowing that Smithsonian Institution has actually paid for the translation of this unique book into English language, and by the words of late Rita Shenton (one of the foremost experts in horological literature), there is no other book on the subject written in such a detail. Thus it would perhaps be in order to give a link to a free download from Google.

Myself, I have a hard copy of the second edition, published in Moscow in 1963, in Russian language.

Thus, to download follow the link: Technology of Watch Production. Some 450 pages of invaluable information, even though the book has been written 1956, watches have not changed much.

Pages 201-202 are related to the topic of rounding up tools as used in watch production, explained as to how and why they are/were used.

Cheers

Dushan

View attachment 424125

I would love a copy but the link goes to an area in google that is access denied.

 

[Old Rivers]

I would love a copy but the link goes to an area in google that is access denied.
[/QUOTE]

All you need is a gmail account and password to log on. I was able to download the file without a problem.

Bill

 

[JackH]

Graham was able to send me a link and I have the file. I have a google and gmail account. Attached is what I get.
I am logged in to gmail but it asks for access. The security may have changed somewhere. I wanted to help anyone who might have the same issue.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Bill,

All you need is a gmail account and password to log on. I was able to download the file without a problem.

I have a logged in gmail account and I couldn't, so it may be more complicated, possibly to do with regional variations.

Regards,

Graham

 

[DeweyC]

Hi Bill,


I have a logged in gmail account and I couldn't, so it may be more complicated, possibly to do with regional variations.

Regards,

Graham

Dushan lives in Serbia and has not been heard from for some time. We know eastern Europe is having strife, and Serbia has been seesawing for several years now. I hate to think his internet has been restricted; but it is possible.

 

[wefalck]

Didn't Dushan live in Australia? I seem to remember that from conversations a few years ago ...

 

[wisty]

I just Googled Tarasov Technology of Watch production pdf and the top hit was a downloadable pdf of of the book. None of my malware checkers objected. It appears to be on an Italian forum dedicated to Soviet Union horology.

 

[ocram]

Hello, I am the guy who scanned the book and made it available to the horological community.
I see someone posted a very old link here, which no longer works due to a security update of google.
Since 2015, as someone already discovered, the book is available at this link:

https://www.cccp-forum.it/docs/books/tarasov_technology_watch_production.pdf

The book has a story, which you can find here:

Tarasov – Technology of Watch Production

Short of six decades did Soviet watchmaking last. But nonetheless it was enough to publish over a hundred and a half technical books. Many of them are on par with the best watchmaking books published in the same period in Europe and the USA. Some are totally unique. None of them were translated...

www.watchuseek.com

Enjoy!
// ocram

 

[DeweyC]

Didn't Dushan live in Australia? I seem to remember that from conversations a few years ago ...

He wanted to return but someone would not let his family go with him. Last comms I had with him was over 18 mos ago. I think we tend to forget that others may not have the freedom of action that many of us have.

 

[part-timer]

Graham was able to send me a link and I have the file. I have a google and gmail account. Attached is what I get.
I am logged in to gmail but it asks for access. The security may have changed somewhere. I wanted to help anyone who might have the same issue. View attachment 738396

I have the same issue. I am, at this moment, logged into my Google account and I get the exact same notification that you are getting ... You Need Access. The issue seems to be with "Google Drive", which is a cloud-based storage service.
If this publication is as helpful and important as it seems to be (and I believe it must be), then it needs to be hosted on a non-Google source, so it won't be selective in its audience. Perhaps Dropbox?
Personally, I abhor all things Google and I'm in the process of replacing Gmail with ProtonMail (a privacy-focused email service based in Switzerland). Part of my ProtonMail service is Proton Drive - which is another cloud-based storage service.
If I could somehow obtain the .pdf in question, I would be happy to host it in either my Dropbox account or my ProtonDrive account - or both. I would then be happy to post links here on this thread so anyone can download it.
Now that I think of it, it would be the MOST helpful of all to have it available at several sources, not just one source.

EDIT - I just saw Ocram's post of the alternate link. I now have the book on my hard drive - I'll upload it to my Proton Drive and Dropbox accounts. If links to those would be helpful, I'll supply them here if there's any interest.

 

[part-timer]

I just uploaded the Tarasov book to both my Dropbox account and my Proton Drive accounts.
While I was at it, for no reason at all I also uploaded Foundations Of Mechanical Accuracy by Wayne Moore, and Lessons In Horology by Jules & Hermann Grossmann.

Links to Technology Of Watch Production (Tarasov):
Dropbox... Technology Of Watch Production by SV Tarasov.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

Links to Foundations Of Mechanical Accuracy (Moore):
Dropbox... Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy-1.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

Links to Lessons In Horology (Grossmann)
Dropbox... Lessons_in_horology.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

 

[JackH]

I just uploaded the Tarasov book to both my Dropbox account and my Proton Drive accounts.
While I was at it, for no reason at all I also uploaded Foundations Of Mechanical Accuracy by Wayne Moore, and Lessons In Horology by Jules & Hermann Grossmann.

Links to Technology Of Watch Production (Tarasov):
Dropbox... Technology Of Watch Production by SV Tarasov.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

Links to Foundations Of Mechanical Accuracy (Moore):
Dropbox... Foundations_of_Mechanical_Accuracy-1.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

Links to Lessons In Horology (Grossmann)
Dropbox... Lessons_in_horology.pdf
Proton Drive... Proton Drive

Thanks for posting these books. (My head is still spinning from the Tarasov book.)

 

[part-timer]

Thanks for posting these books. (My head is still spinning from the Tarasov book.)

You're very welcome. One thing I think could be improved with this forum would be a central place to upload pdf files and the like. Seems to me that it would be useful to make certain rare books available to those who are interested. As it is, leaving files like these buried in a thread render them unavailable to those who don't happen to stumble upon them. If they were in a clearly-labeled sub-section of "Horological Miscellany" then they might be easier to locate. But that's just me.