Waltham Crescent St. 17 j conversions from Royals?

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by okiejohn, Feb 13, 2019.

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  1. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

    Nov 22, 2013
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    Hello!
    I just picked up a Waltham Crescent St. Model 1892, 17 jewel, 18S watch, lever set, in excellent running order. From what I understand, this is one of the movements that started as a "Royal", but was converted by the factory to a "Crescent St." and the factory milled out "Royal" and engraved in "Crescent St." It is SN 7819020. Attached are some photos. The dial is a bit rough, but otherwise it's running great, in a Fahys "guaranteed" case.
    I'm sure this movement has been discussed ad nauseam in the past, but all of the discussions I found were ancient and the links to related articles were no longer active.

    Can anyone tell me about how many movements were converted in this way?

    Thanks in advance for any information!

    3a68b7606e72510452a23db82adc6600.JPG 3222aa4be96c49878ca511fe49ac5ff5.JPG
     
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  2. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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  3. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

    Nov 22, 2013
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    Kent- THANKS! That is EXACTLY the informational site I was searching for.
     
  4. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    The thanks should really go to Jim Schneider.

    The link to his website can be found (long after this thread is forgotten) in the References section of the Waltham Watches Encyclopedia article. Many of the Encyclopedia articles have References sections containing useful links. The key pages to bookmark (or list as favorites - depending upon your browser) are:
    American Watch Makers
    Watch Case Makers
    Jobbers Catalogs

    And the one dearest to my heart:
    Railroad watches
     
  5. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

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    Thanks for the tips...I'm still trying to navigate my way around this website.
     
  6. grtnev

    grtnev Registered User
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    #6 grtnev, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
    First of all, a very nice watch - thank for sharing.

    To the Waltham experts on this forum, I'm probably not looking at this correctly, but I see a difference between what the NAWCC Waltham online database shows regarding Model 1892 Royal movements and what Mr.Schneider shows on his website.

    The NAWCC online Waltham database shows:

    Model Grade Size Jewels Style Earliest Latest First Last Runs Count
    1892 Royal 18 17 HC 11/1897 3/1900 7537001 7673000 3 2500
    1892 Royal 18 17 OF 12/1897 1/1902 7538001 7753000 3 2000
    2 Variants Totals: 6 runs, 4500 movements, all s/n's less than 7,8xx,xxx.

    where Mr. Schneider shows Model 1892 Royal grade movement serial numbers into the 7,8xx,xxx range and although he does not clearly indicate that these are 17 jewel movements that is the impression I get.

    Also, I seemed to recall from another post on this site that not all 17j Model 1892 Royal grade movements were tu-toned.

    Below is an example of a 17j, model 1892, Royal grade, HC, s/n 7672180 that was not up-jeweled.

    Dial 2 - Copy.jpg View attachment 518286 Movement 1.jpg
     
  7. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    The NAWCC online Waltham database is based upon the data in the Gray Book* and it is known to have combined smaller runs of similar movements and which doesn't show watches that were upjeweled. My own efforts in gathering data on railroad grade Waltham model 83 movements has taught me the truth of these two facts (and yes, I've reported a number of watches that didn't match the NAWCC online Waltham database listings).

    Jim Schneider's work was developed from observed surviving examples; no doubt much like my efforts. Push come to shove, I'd trust Jim's website over the NAWCC online Waltham database.


    * Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements, Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954
     
  8. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Jim Schneider also gets credit for doing the transcription of the Gray Book that is included in the NAWCC Waltham database. Jim has added a great deal of additional information from his observations over the intervening 17 years.
     
  9. yellow_sub

    yellow_sub Registered User
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    One of these popped up one ebay sometime last summer. I regret not bidding a bit more. Unfortunately, I didn't make a note of the serial number either. I love how they look, maybe one day i'll get my hands on one.
     
  10. okiejohn

    okiejohn Registered User

    Nov 22, 2013
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    Kent & Tom-
    I forwarded my watch information to Jim for inclusion into his data, as this movement SN was not as yet included in his "reported" list.
    Thanks again everyone for all the information!
     
  11. Snide

    Snide Registered User

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    I was surfing through posts and found this one. A few years ago my interest in watches kind of declined and for the most part I stopped collecting serial numbers and tending to the website. I’m starting to get interested again and will see if I can get the site functioning as it should in the near future.

    There is a reference in this post about a M92 Royal that is not a two tone. I am unaware of such a watch unless the guilt was removed in cleaning (or intentionally) the stuff they used to clean watches with was caustic. Also, the M92 Royal was only made in 17 jewels as far as I know. If you find one in another jewel count, buy it!! The dials on M92 Royals should say “American Waltham Watch Co”. That changed around 9 million 5.

    I have some free time over the next couple weeks. Will be adding some serial numbers to the database and (hopefully) spending some time on the site-I know it needs maintenance.

    I have to say that it was nice to see my name in this post. It’s nice knowing I’ve made a contribution to a wonderful hobby. I’ll try to get the website functioning as well as the fine watch whose story it tells.
     
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  12. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Jim, you may not like the way the NAWCC-Info site works, but there is a facility to add observations to the data and also provide a link to additional pictures and other information from the observation entry.

    That part of the site needs more work also.
     

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