Waltham - Canadian Railway Time Service - Great find!

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by wilsonpaule, Nov 9, 2018 at 12:27 PM.

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  1. wilsonpaule

    wilsonpaule Registered User
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    Oct 23, 2011
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    Hi All, I have not posted here in a long time, but figured this was worth sharing and I have a couple of questions.
    I was at an estate auction today and in among a box of pocket watches I found a beauty! Been a while since I got this lucky!
    Waltham, serial # 7711674, model 1883, Grade Crescent Street.
    What makes this one more interesting is that it is Marked "Canadian Railway Time Service". I have done some research, but cannot determine how many of these were made with this marking. Does anyone know?
    I have a number of model 1883s, but this is the first one I have encountered personally marked like this.
    It has the correct Canadian 24 hr dial (which will clean up beautifully) and appears to be in its original case (Manufactured by BANNER). I realize that Waltham manufactured the watches and exported the movements to Canada to be cased.
    The case is very worn.....not sure if I should try and shine it up or not....what is everyone's opinion on that?
    CRTS.jpeg

    Movement.jpeg Movement.jpeg Serial.jpeg Dial.jpeg Case back.jpeg
     
  2. musicguy

    musicguy Registered User
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  3. wilsonpaule

    wilsonpaule Registered User
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    Music Guy, Yup, I took a closer look at the case and you are correct, it does have a second set of screw marks on it. No big deal to me. Would I prefer the original case? Sure I would, but I am not going to worry about it. I am just pleased o have been able to find this watch and add it to my collection.
     
  4. wilsonpaule

    wilsonpaule Registered User
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  5. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    I wouldn't be so sure of the total quantity of 2102. You might find the "Waltham's Canadian Railway Movements" Encyclopedia article helpful.
     
  6. wilsonpaule

    wilsonpaule Registered User
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    Hi Kent

    Thanks for pointing me to that great information in that encyclopedia article you posted. The problem is, I may be more confused than before. It is kind of hard to tell how many of the 1883, Crescent Street, marked Canadian Railway Time Service were actually made. Do you think there are more or less than the 2102 that Brian MacDOnald mentioned in his research?
     
  7. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

    Apr 11, 2002
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    Wow Wilson paule, thats a really nice movement. I would not be concerned about extra screw arks either, awesome find.
     
  8. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    You're correct; "It is kind of hard to tell how many of the 1883, Crescent Street, marked Canadian Railway Time Service were actually made."

    There are a number of issues that cloud the total numbers of any of the Waltham Canadian railway watches that were built. That these total numbers are indeterminate isn't clearly pointed out in the "Waltham's Canadian Railway Movements" Encyclopedia article which will have to be updated to stress that fact (*sigh* one more thing to do).

    Insofar as only a relatively few of the model 1883 movements is listed as CPR grade and none as CRTS in Waltham records, I don't know how Brian MacDonald arrived at his estimates. In fact, even for runs listed as CPR and CRTS in "The Gray Book", examples have been reported as grades other than what was listed. And, for examples shown in the Encyclopedia article as a grade other than CPR or CRTS within a serial number range, there are reported examples of movements bearing the grade name interspersed between the examples of CPR or CRTS marked movements.

    By the way, Brian didn't claim that there were 2102 model 1883, CRTS movements made from Crescent Street runs. He wrote that there were 2102 model 1883, CRTS movements from all grades' runs. So, I'd say that there were not very many model 1883, CRTS movements made from Crescent Street runs.
     
  9. testguy

    testguy Registered User
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    #9 testguy, Nov 14, 2018 at 7:11 PM
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2018 at 7:42 PM
    Some years ago, I used the reported examples from the Encyclopedia and calculated how many CPR & CRTS watches were listed from known runs. Using this number I calculated how many watches of each type were manufactured. These results are gusstimates at best, but provide some idea of how many of each model were produced.

    From my presentation:

    It is impossible to determine how many CPR and CRTS watches were produced by Waltham. Some years ago, I worked from the NAWCC's reported examples of CPR and CRTS watches. Based on complete runs, I determined how many were reported. I then did the math which resulted in the following estimates.

    18 Size CPR Model 1883 5128

    18 Size CPR Model 1892 17j 2307

    18 Size CRTS Model 1883 2102

    18 Size CRTS Model 1892 1435

    From the Gray Book, we know the following production numbers from complete runs:

    18 Size CPR Model 1892 21j O.F. 500

    18 Size CPR Model 1892 21j Hunter 100

    16 Size CPR 1908 1250

    16 Size CRTS 1908 550

    The Gray Book has errors. For instance, my CRTS 1892 is listed as one of a complete run of 500 CPR's. The only way to establish accurate production numbers, is to get the watches reported in the NAWCC data base so researchers can piece together complete runs.
     

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