Waltham Canadian Pacific Railroad??

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by dharam, May 24, 2018.

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  1. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Hi,
    Here is my 18s Waltham Canadian Pacific Railroad.
    Now my question is that all the examples that I see on the net shows 24hr dial,that puts me in a quandary if this is a franken or legit?
    Please shed some light.
    Thanks much

    3AA1DE80-81B1-4652-A7A8-4569593B17F1.jpeg 05EB09B6-5D5C-4759-9AE9-D38541DC27DE.jpeg
     
  2. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Being that the hands are not matched, I would say the possibility is that the dial was replaced at some point. Missing a plate screw by the balance too. Not trying to pick....just looking.
     
  3. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Any and all of your inputs means a lot.
    Thanks much
     
  4. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I do like these movements with the engraved beaver over the logo.

    Rob
     
  5. Bildeborg

    Bildeborg Registered User

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    Please excuse my ignorance but is there part of the regulator missing? It looks like none I have seen afore.

    Regards,

    Jay.
     
  6. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    I personally with my limited knowledge don’t think so,as it is keeping perfect time and I do think this grade has similar regulators.
    But I may be wrong!
     
  7. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    The regulator is fine. Nothing is missing. The regulator "pointer" is also a built in whip or spring as you wish. The tip of which may be obscured by the bad lighting but by the distortion of the index markings I would say it is there. I would ask for a better pic.
     
  8. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Hope this is a better pic.
    Thanks

    6E24A91C-D964-492B-B033-87B51B0F293C.jpeg
     
  9. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    Yep....regulator is fine.
     
  10. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Some Good News.
     
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  11. Bill Manders

    Bill Manders Registered User

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    Hi Dharam,
    Although no expert, I have a couple of CRTS, and one CPR 18 size Waltham watches. I think they did come with a Roman Numeral outer dial, and an Arabic 24 hr inner ring, seeing as they are strictly a Canadian Watch, it all makes sense.
    I think these dials are quite easy to come by though, so should be no problem to acquire one if you wanted to.
    They are great watches and very collectable.
    Bill
     
  12. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    That totally make sense.
    Thank you very much
     
  13. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    “””The Dial with the 24 hour markings would be correct for railroaders working west of Fort William Ontario a 12 hour dial would be used in the East””””
    This is something I just found on one of the forums on the net regarding the CPR’s.
     
  14. Stephen Matusek

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    Nice pocket watch, it has potential. In the first pic, it looks like the screw near the click is missing also. I'm not trying to pick at it, I'd love to have one like it. Find the right dial & screw(s) & it will be looking original again. I seem to like the flip out p/l set cases at times.

    Steve
     
  15. John Cote

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    The great thing is that none of what you need to put this watch back in original looking shape is all that difficult to find. Keep looking. It's worth it.
     
  16. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    I will look for the dial.
     
  17. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Hi,
    Someone just pointed that the serial on this one does not match the data that exists about the Waltham CPR’s.
    Can someone please shed some light?
    I see it’s a Appleton Tracy model.
    Please help.
    Thanks much
     
  18. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Serial #18017005
     
  19. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Actually, the serial number is 18107005. But the person who pointed out that it doesn't match the data listed in the "Waltham's Canadian Railway Movements" Encyclopedia article is correct. I'm a bit behind in updating that article, but it will be added (along with a slew of others as yet unlisted examples) eventually.

    If you read the article, you'll learn that it isn't uncommon for a CPR or CRTS marked movement to carry a serial number seemingly belonging in a run of a different grade. Part of the reason is that Waltham built the movements from what made sense to them at the time that they received an order.

    Another part of the reason is that for serial numbers above 7,500,000 (thereabouts), data was obtained from the book Serial Numbers With Description of Waltham Watch Movements, Waltham Watch Co., Waltham, MA, 1954, (commonly referred to as "The Gray Book"). This book was created to facilitate parts ordering. To keep the overall size manageable, Waltham combined small runs of similar grades (as long as they used the same parts). This book was used it the making of the NAWCC Waltham Serial Number Database. So, the only way that these small runs show up is when people report observations of "watches that don't match" the listed data.

    Please feel free to ask about anything that isn't clear to you.
     
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  20. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Wow that was very helpful.
    Amazing since the database does not put this in the Railroad Grade category,but was somehow ok for the CPR.
    Maybe Canadian standards were not that stringent.
     
  21. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Also if you can please suggest if the 1883 and the 1892 models have the same dial feet’s,as I am looking for a 24 hr dial for this one? Thanks much again
     
  22. butlercreek

    butlercreek Registered User
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    No they do not have the same dial feet locations...
     
  23. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    So 1892 should be the right one sir?
    Thanks
     
  24. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    #24 Kent, Jun 13, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2018
    The Canadian Railroad Time Service Watch Rules were every bit as stringent as those for railroads in the U.S. (see the top of the right-hand column in the 1907 document below - the OP's CPR movement falls into the group "... all grades equal or above,"). The description for the model '92 CPR is also shown below (the rest of the catalog can be found in the list of Jobbers Catalogs).

    Generally, watches adjusted to three positions were accepted into Railroad Time Service (in both the U.S. and in Canada) until about 1906-1908, at which time adjustment to five positions started to be required. The model '92 Appleton, Tracy & Co. grade movements were adjusted to three positions and hence by the time the run of AT&Co serial number 18107001 - 18107500 was made, they were no longer allowed to enter railroad service. Serial number 18107005 being finished as a CPR grade would have been adjusted to five positions and would have been accepted on most railways.

    1907_CPR_Standard_Time.jpg 1906-7_Goldsmiths_Pg_06_Waltham_18S_1892.jpg
     
  25. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Wow that’s a ton of knowledge,let me digest it slowly.
    Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom.
     
  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The key piece of information that Kent shared is that a private label watch whether or not listed by name in the Waltham records was adjusted to the standards specified in the contract. The same is true for American Ball watches made by Waltham for example.

    That also brings up the point that you could ask for just your name on the watch with no particular mechanical standards. If that was what you wanted it was very inexpensive.
     
  27. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    You guys are simply amazing that’s all I can say
     
  28. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    You're welcome. This is what we do here.
     
  29. dharam

    dharam Registered User
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    Really proud to be a part of this family.
     
  30. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Unlike the typical private label watch, those that Waltham made for the Ball Watch Co. were only minimally adjusted by Waltham. The real adjustment was carried out at Ball's facility.
     
  31. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Jay:

    I'm sorry that I missed responding to this earlier. As others have posted, its correct as is. Its known as the Ohlson or 1908 regulator and it was used on many higher grade Waltham watches.

    1908_Aug_5_Ohlson_Regulator.jpg
     
  32. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    There is no such thing as "franken?" If it has had a replaced Dial so be it. It is usually used to denigrate a Pocket Watch owned by someone else. Regards Ray
     
  33. 179

    179 Registered User
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    Watch with numbered components replaced with non-matching numbers = franken. Dials are not numbered, replaced dial could make it correct or incorrect.
     
  34. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #34 Omexa, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    Are you trying to teach me to suck eggs; I agree with you about a Pocket Watch with mismatched parts; it is not original. What I disagree with is the derogatory word Franken, used by American narrow minded Pocket Watch Collectors. Non existent in the European Forum. Brings to mind "Oh yours is a Franken Pocket Watch; mine isn't". Like petulant School Kids. Regards Ray
     
  35. 179

    179 Registered User
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    Call them what you want. I will call these Franken Watches as I always have, they are what they are.
     
  36. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Another interesting point about pocket watch cases is that, until fairly late in the evolution of the American pocket watch, the factory that made the watch movement did not put the watch in a case (and, usually, did not even make watch cases). Instead, watch manufacturers shipped completed movements to jewelers or distributors. https://www.nawcc-ch190.com/watchinfo.html I think that you better read this; not Cased at Factory in your system of thought; it makes most American Pocket Watches Franken. How would you know if it has been re-cased? Obvious signs are old screw marks; but if no screw marks:???: Regards Ray
     
  37. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I've got one Ray, look just inside the lid of this American case and you can see the number #2771.
    Case is circa 1844, so is the watch. :)

    Keith R...

    103_0809 (800x600).jpg 103_0817 (800x600) - Copy.jpg 103_0829 (800x600) - Copy.jpg
     
  38. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Yeah Keith, there were lots of English movements Cased in America; and the Americans made some very fine Cases that had the movement Number on the Case. I am writing about American movements made in America. Regards Ray
     
  39. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    There has been many a talk on another forum on the subject of "Franken" watches. It was applied to all watches, not just one segment of the watch collecting world. Many times these accusations are pointed at some kind of Indian FL or brightly pained dial wristwatch in a the wrong case and a movement that looks like it was put together from 6 others. I believe the term is subjective based on the section of the hobby.

    There are differences between original, modified, restored and franken. Even in the original category there is differing opinion to where even the mainspring being replaced makes it no longer original....yes there are that type out there that feel that the only original watch has never been worn or serviced and lives in a box to look pretty.

    I have learned that in wristwatches there is less tolerance of putting the wrong movement in the wrong ref case or putting the wrong style hands on. But then we are not talking about a style of watch that was put together by jobbers. You did not go in and pick the dial style, movement and case for your wristwatch because you just buy the watch that is being sold complete.

    American pocket watches have a life of their own. There are documents to say what style of dial went with which Hamiton watch. There are examples for hands. There is loads of information. If you piece together a watch to bring it back to what it should have been like as new...you restored it. This is a tasteful process done sympathetically to the watch. A good example is my 962 #2. I am sure some will call it a franken because I had to find a correct dial and a correct case. I had to order the correct hands from the best hands guy here....Marty. I'm not doing it to try and pass it off as "All Original" but rather putting it back to a respectable state after over 100 years of being God knows where. Some will call the Illinois #1 a franken because of the dial and recase. Does not mean that it is not still the #1 Illinois.

    Some of us do what we do out of respect for the watch and the history it represents. I do what I do not because I want to show off that I have the most original and expensive example of some watch. I want to share my experiences, thoughts, and passion for watch collecting. If the watch I have offends some....that is their choice to be offended. At the point that someone only picks on the bad and does not see the overall picture of the hobby, they have lost the passion of just enjoying great watches. I am not pointing that at anyone, just stating my opinion.
     
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  40. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    I totally agree with you Kevin. Regards Ray
     
  41. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I know what you mean if you're talking just cases. But I think Kevin sums it up pretty good
    about watches.

    Keith R...

    100_1282 (800x600).jpg 100_1299 (800x600).jpg philly4 (800x600).jpg Philly 034 (800x600) (2).jpg
     
  42. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    I do like the Philadelphia Pocket Watch. I have bid a few times on them but usually outbid. Regards Ray
     
  43. Kevin Neathery

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    #43 Kevin Neathery, Jun 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2018
    I get what you are saying...I have heard of automatic Omega watches being called a franken because the rotor is a slightly different color. The rotor is not numbered but the color does show it has been either replaced or the rest of the movement was improperly cleaned and the finish is not the right shade. And movement parts with mismatched numbers does not make it original either. Can't even say that makes it a restoration as it would have to had missing parts when bought or a part was damaged too far beyond repair and someone wanted to get it running again.

    If the OP wants to find a different case that is correct for the watch, put on a correct dial, put on the correct hands, but not replace any of the bridges then I would say it is a restoration. Now if decides to swap out bridges to make the movement half gold flashed and half NI then swap out the winding wheels to black PVD ones.....yeah...that is a total franken done to just trash a good movement.

    I have seen some bad things done by people just trying to make a quick buck and that is all they care about. They usually make frankens. I'm not trying to win over your opinion or say that you are wrong. I am just saying that for American pocket watches there is a grey area that exists.

    Here is the only American pocket watch I own that would fit tin the ultra original category without a second thought...
     
  44. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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  45. 179

    179 Registered User
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    I said, " with numbered components replaced with non-matching numbers". This means movements, I never mentioned cases. Without documentation cases cannot be proven original. At best without they can be said appears to be original.
     
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  46. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Ray:

    I suppose that this depends upon your (and Dave Coatsworth's) definition of 'fairly late in the evolution of the American pocket watch':

    By 1906 (thereabouts), the E. Howard Watch Co. was selling its brand of watches as cased watches only (although several private label watches were sold as movements).

    In 1903, the Hampden Watch Co. introduced its new Wm McKinley grade as a cased watch only (for a time). Only several years later, its 'Four Hundred' series movements were offered as complete watches.

    By 1909, the Elgin Watch Co. was offering railroad grade watches in 20- or 25-year factory-signed cases.

    The Hamilton Watch Co. offered many of its movements cased at the factory around this time and some grades were (for a time) only available as cased watches.

    And, by 1905, the Ball Watch Co., arguably a watch manufacturer - at least to the point of not being considered a private label watch for railroad time service purposes, was stating in their catalog (about the Official Standard grade) "Sold as a Complete watch only in Ball Model cases..." In fact, a 1902 Ball catalog stated, "Sold as a Complete watch only."


    With the amount of case swapping that has gone on, frequently, you couldn't know, even if factory cased. But for a huge number of watches, you'd spot it in a moment. They're all the 16-size late 19th century and early 20th century movements in chrome or rolled gold, low- or no-pendant cases that were made in the 1930s-1960s. Why it almost hurts the eye. Even worse are the 18-size movements in those same style of cases.

    Granted, if the movement needs a case, waddaya gonna do? But don't pretend that you can't tell that the movement has been recased.

    1907_Apr_Howard_Constructive_Adjustment.jpg 1903_Jan_Hampden_Wm_McKinley.jpg 1908_Feb-19_Hampden_Cased_Watches.jpg 1909_Sep_Elgin_Hostler_to_Engineer.jpg 1905_Cat_Pgs_4_18_Waltham_Ball.JPG
     
  47. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    But cases do come into play sometimes. You will not find a Hamilton Model A case on a early 974. I also said "but not replace any of the bridges". As far as I was aware plates\bridges were the only numbered parts on American movements. I am sure there are some situations where other parts may have been numbered...I just can't think of or know of them.

    It is down to the individual selling to be honest and disclose any changes they made. If I changed out a numbered bridge....I would state such even if it impacts what I get for it. Others may not. But then I have never had to do that. I may need to in the future with a Columbus that I got that had the wrong balance bridge. I will try and find a correct one from a purely parts movement and then if I sell it and disclose that I had to replace the balance bridge with another that was correct type and style. But the dial is fantastic, well I think so, on it and that was the main reason I wanted it. It also keeps great time. The only other thing I could do is find another good movement the same and swap dials. Then I could say.....appears to be original? Just kidding.
     
  48. 179

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    Kevin, the most often mismatched component replaced on a pocket watch is the balance wheel. On almost 100% of American pocket watches these are marked on the underside of the arm. Barrels and covers are also mostly marked. It is easy to tell on a replaced balance wheel on a high grade watch if the replacement came from a lower grade. The lower grades will not have the fine materials and high finish. On lower grade watches this becomes more difficult without disassembly. Post 1940 on Railroad Grade watches Hamilton eliminated numbers except for the dial plate. I am not certain about Elgin and Waltham, but at some point I would think they did the same. The important thing is these watches have changed owners several times and not everyone has the same scruples.
     
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  49. Bildeborg

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    Kent, thanks for the clarification of the Ohlson 1908 regulator. It's a new one to me. I've just bought a Waltham with an Ohlson 1906 patent regulator (arrives tomorrow) which is quite different besides being also new to me.

    So much to learn......

    Regards,

    Jay.
     
  50. Kevin Neathery

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    I will be honest, I never check the balance for a number but know I have seen them. I had attributed those to watchmakers not wanting to get balances mixed up. But it dos pose an interesting thought...It take a lot of trust and faith that what you get is all original when you buy a old pocket watch. Not sure I would sit in front of a dealer and take the balance off just to check the number. Then to go check the barrel......I should try that and see what they say.
     

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