Waltham 9 jewel in a English sterling Dennison case

[Paul Raposo]

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the American watches forum because it's an American movement for the European market in an English sterling case.

It was a 9 jewel stem wind/pendant set movement with a Montgomery dial. The dial and hands could easily pass for a railroad grade watch, but clearly with 9 jewels it would not.

I haven't been able to find much info outside of the Dennison/Waltham ties in the UK market, any info would be appreciated.

The only issue I had when looking at the watch was there appeared to be an extra screw head mark on the rim of the case which makes me wonder if the movement is original to the case.

 

[DaveyG]

Sounds to me like it is probably an ex UK military movement which has been redialled and recased (etc) to make it fit for civilian use. The 9 jewel (Mdl1609) Waltham movement was used in the watches supplied to the UK military but there were no mil markings on the movements, just the cases. Serial number and pictures might be useful although unlikely to be definitive.

 

[Paul Raposo]

Sounds to me like it is probably an ex UK military movement which has been redialled and recased (etc) to make it fit for civilian use. The 9 jewel (Mdl1609) Waltham movement was used in the watches supplied to the UK military but there were no mil markings on the movements, just the cases. Serial number and pictures might be useful although unlikely to be definitive.

That's an interesting point DaveyG. I didn't buy it as I wasn't sure if I wanted to take a flyer on it, but it was tough to walk past it. I should have written down the serial number though.

 

[Paul Raposo]

Well, I ended up buying the watch and I already regret it

The case dates from 1920 but the movement dates from 1936. Cosmetically it looks like someone used a screwdriver to open the curvette and did some damage to the case.

At some point it looks like two jewels were replaced.

I let curiosity get the better of me on this one.

Here's a link to the Waltham serial number:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/29257682

 

[topspin]

Enjoy it for what it is... it's beautiful and makes a great carry-watch. Most of the people you wave it in front of, won't get past staring at the dial.

Photos - 4 of mine, all of this same "9 JEWELS" (1609) grade, but which have finished up looking completely different -


30556547 with the boxcar dial
29610310 with the "no seconds bit" dial allowing it to be used as a hunter
30467210 with the Montgomery dial just like yours
30467575 (front and back) loose movement with the typical GSTP / military dial
Also for comparison, 30757217 (Vanguard Premier 23J) which bears more than a passing similarity to our "1609" Montgomery dials.


30467210 with the "Premier" Montgomery dial just like yours

 

[Paul Raposo]

Enjoy it for what it is... it's beautiful and makes a great carry-watch. Most of the people you wave it in front of, won't get past staring at the dial.

Photos - 4 of mine, all of this same "9 JEWELS" (1609) grade, but which have finished up looking completely different

Wow topspin, this movement seemed to be the go to movement for "modding" back in the day. Great looking examples you have there

Yeah, I have to say it's grown on me and is keeping pretty good time. A momentary phase of buyers remorse that has passed.

 

[DaveyG]

Paul, for me there is something not quite right with this watch. The case hallmarks are for Birmingham Assay in 1945 - 46 yet the movement dates to c1936. The Grey Book identifies the serial number as a 1908 Model 1609 Grade but this doesn't seem to have 9 Jewels. The configuration that I know for the 1609 Grade is the 7 jewels for the escapement plus 2 for the escape wheel with a plate layout like those photographed in the PW Db to which you have linked and the black dialled military watch that topspin shows. Your watch appears to have a brass bush on the escape wheel and jewels on the 3rd & 4th wheels; that would indicate that there are no jewels on the 3rd & 4th on the dial plate for there to be 9 jewels and I don't recall ever having seen a Waltham without paired jewelled holes.

Of those pictured by topspin:

Grade 1623 (ie 23 Jewel) 30556547 with the boxcar dial
Grade 1609 (ie 9 Jewel) 29610310 with the "no seconds bit" dial allowing it to be used as a hunter
Grade 1617 (ie 17 Jewel) 30467210 with the Montgomery dial just like yours
Grade 1609 (ie 9 Jewel) 30467575 (front and back) loose movement with the typical GSTP / military dial

Good carry watch as topspin says and something to research as well.

 

[Paul Raposo]

Paul, for me there is something not quite right with this watch. The case hallmarks are for Birmingham Assay in 1945 - 46 yet the movement dates to c1936. The Grey Book identifies the serial number as a 1908 Model 1609 Grade but this doesn't seem to have 9 Jewels. The configuration that I know for the 1609 Grade is the 7 jewels for the escapement plus 2 for the escape wheel with a plate layout like those photographed in the PW Db to which you have linked and the black dialled military watch that topspin shows. Your watch appears to have a brass bush on the escape wheel and jewels on the 3rd & 4th wheels; that would indicate that there are no jewels on the 3rd & 4th on the dial plate for there to be 9 jewels and I don't recall ever having seen a Waltham without paired jewelled holes.

Thank you for the correct date code, I thought it was early 1920s. I really need to get a cop of the book Graham mentioned.

The case has a mark from another screw head so I assume there was another movement in the case before this one. When this movement was recased I don't know.

There's a circular mark around one of the jewel holes which may have been when the jewel was pressed in. Maybe someone decided they wanted jewels rather than bushings?

As for the escape wheel I though it was a jewel in a brass bushing but it might just be a new bush. I'll take some better pics Monday or Tuesday.

 

[Paul Raposo]

I was thinking about cross posting this in the American Watch forum but I'm not sure about the rules regarding that.

 

[DaveyG]

Just click on the exclamation mark, bottom left of the post and aske a moderator to move it for you. I think the American Forum is where it belongs.

 

[Dave Coatsworth]

Hi Paul,
I'll move it to the American forum for you. This will leave a link behind for one month so, in effect, you will be temporarily posted in both forums. That should get you some additional responses.

 

[Paul Raposo]

Just click on the exclamation mark, bottom left of the post and aske a moderator to move it for you. I think the American Forum is where it belongs.

Thanks much for this tip DaveyG, I'll save that for future reference.

Hi Paul, I'll move it to the American forum for you. This will leave a link behind for one month so, in effect, you will be temporarily posted in both forums. That should get you some additional responses.

Thank you Dave

 

[topspin]

Paul, for me there is something not quite right with this watch. The case hallmarks are for Birmingham Assay in 1945 - 46 yet the movement dates to c1936. The Grey Book identifies the serial number as a 1908 Model 1609 Grade but this doesn't seem to have 9 Jewels. The configuration that I know for the 1609 Grade is the 7 jewels for the escapement plus 2 for the escape wheel with a plate layout like those photographed in the PW Db to which you have linked and the black dialled military watch that topspin shows. Your watch appears to have a brass bush on the escape wheel and jewels on the 3rd & 4th wheels; that would indicate that there are no jewels on the 3rd & 4th on the dial plate for there to be 9 jewels and I don't recall ever having seen a Waltham without paired jewelled holes.

Of those pictured by topspin:

Grade 1623 (ie 23 Jewel) 30556547 with the boxcar dial
Grade 1609 (ie 9 Jewel) 29610310 with the "no seconds bit" dial allowing it to be used as a hunter
Grade 1617 (ie 17 Jewel) 30467210 with the Montgomery dial just like yours
Grade 1609 (ie 9 Jewel) 30467575 (front and back) loose movement with the typical GSTP / military dial

Good carry watch as topspin says and something to research as well.

The one with the montgomery dial should be 30462210 not 30467210, sorry my typo.
The boxcar dial 30556547 is correct as a 1609/9J - https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/waltham/30556547

Anyway here are movement photos for the 3 cased examples.

 

[DaveyG]

Apologies topspin, the Grey Book does show 30556547 as a 1609, it is the next run that is 1623 . I read off the wrong line. 30462210 is still a Grade 1617 though

Notably the plate layout though are all what I think were known as (perhaps Post 1945) as Model 16A and completely different to Paul's 1908 Model

 

[topspin]

One more for the collection...
So, this is sitting in a case (complete with broad-arrow marking) absolutely typical of a black-dial military GSTP.
But at some point someone has fitted it with a nice new Waltham dial "Made in Germany" and some shiny-metal hands.
In my repairs queue.