Waltham 645 in an Ordnance Dept. base metal case?

Brad Maisto

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A04057B7-4A65-4C0B-828F-72A308F84753.jpeg 3BA173DF-67CC-4C3D-85C3-0955DE5BEB08.jpeg I could almost guarantee that this Waltham 645,serial #19,089,420 did not start out in this Ordnance Department NO.OE - 10974 marked base metal case? And what about the “Premier - 21 Jewel” marked dial! Does anyone know more information on this military marked case? Thanks, Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary
 

captainscarlet

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Hi Brad, Whitney's book shows the ordnance code "OE". For 21 jewel railroad grade pocket watches.
 

rolandantrobus

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That case shows screw marks from a previous movement so it seems you are correct. That dial never left the dial shop at Walthams either. I like the movement and the beer tho'!
 

Brad Maisto

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CaptainScarlet,
Thanks for that information, I did find the “OE” designation for 21-jewel railroad grade on page 629 of Marvin Whitney’s book, now to see if I can determine the significance of the number?
Roland, The bottle cap was used to simply elevate the crystal cover to the same plane as the dial, but it was an enjoyable drink.
Thanks, Brad Maisto
 

C. N. Lloyd

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The number 10974 is the organizational serial number. These were put directly on the case so there would be no need to expose the movement to the elements to obtain the factory SN when hand receipting it to a soldier. Also, if the watch were sent to depot for servicing and it did not get the same case upon departure, as was the situation for many military watches, no accounting damage was done; the org. SN on the case back was the only number the army was interested in. The end user was still responsible for a complete watch, in this case, no matter the factory SN.

As was stated, a Hamilton 992B with government markings was the only watch that would have been rightfully installed in this case. From time to time, a government marked 992B in a civilian case turns up. If you find one, you will have the right case to put it in.

C. N. Lloyd
39 years of pocket watch collecting
 

Kent

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... That dial never left the dial shop at Walthams either. ...
I disagree with this. In the late 1930s Waltham made a number of dials similar to this one. One such is the Railway Dispatcher dial on 1621 Riverside movement serial number 28,896,797. They even had a similar dial signed "Railway Special" (one wonders if Hamilton had anything to say - in court - about this).
 

179

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I agree completely with Kent on this , it IS a Waltham dial from late production.
 

rolandantrobus

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OK I bow to people with more knowledge than me on this, but it is a horrible dial. Compare the Waltham lettering with Kent's "Railway Dispatcher" example above, really primitive. The centre sunk part is just painted on crudely. I know standards slipped towards the end but even so....
 

Brad Maisto

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So then is this dial only appropriate for a more modern Waltham “Premiere” labeled movement?
Much Thanks for the input so far, Brad Maisto

P. S. And is this case strictly meant for a government labeled Hamilton 992B movement?
 

Larry Treiman

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So then is this dial only appropriate for a more modern Waltham “Premiere” labeled movement?
Much Thanks for the input so far, Brad Maisto

P. S. And is this case strictly meant for a government labeled Hamilton 992B movement?
When Waltham introduced their new lineup of watches for 1938 they started the practice of putting the "WALTHAM PREMIER" brand on the dials only (not the movements) of every wrist and pocket watch in the line, ranging from 9-jewels to 23-jewels. I don't know how long the practice continued. Those depression years were rough for Waltham. Perhaps management thought that the entire line might benefit, prestige-wise, by association with the "Premier Maximus".

That particular dial now on Brad's grade 645 would have been used on a Waltham grade 1621 movement starting in 1938. The grade 1621 was not a railroad standard watch; It was marketed in some Waltham catalogs as a "transportation" watch for streetcar and bus operators, that did not have to qualify under railroad watch inspection rules. By that time the only railroad standard grade offered by Waltham was the 23-jewel PREMIER VANGUARD!!


Larry Treiman

P.S. Brad, regarding your P.S., that particular case style was used for other military and civilian watches. However, the fact that it has the Ordnaznce Dept. serial number with the OE prefix indicates that the case was assigned to a G.I. 992B, since that was the only 21-jewel railroad grade watch purchased by the Ordnance Department for issue as a railroad watch during WWII that I have ever heard of!

Larry
 
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Kent

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OK I bow to people with more knowledge than me on this, but it is a horrible dial. Compare the Waltham lettering with Kent's "Railway Dispatcher" example above, really primitive. The centre sunk part is just painted on crudely. I know standards slipped towards the end but even so....
These are not center sunk dials. They are what are referred to as Single-Sunk (or Sunk Seconds) Inner Circle dials. And yeah, the lettering is pretty typical. Here's another similar example, albeit a 23-jewel one.

16S_23J_Vanguard_1623_34501639.jpg
 
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Brad Maisto

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3D0CC3A0-05E7-47FE-BFCE-2BAB9A29AAC1.jpeg 6CBF4410-205A-4C14-8F3D-1FA9DDF6A29A.jpeg D9A346A5-2127-4841-9A83-8630EF23E07B.jpeg I don’t normally do case switching, but this may be the exception! I do have a 992B in a Keystone base metal case, #1386300, that has “remnants” of government markings on the back case cover, but are practically illegible! The serial number on the Keystone case with the 645 inside is #574093. The 992B is serial #C40,855 and is marked U.S. GOVT. I picked up the Waltham in Jasper, IN back in November, 2001 and I acquired the Hamilton back in 2002.
Thanks, Brad Maisto
 

Jim Haney

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Brad,
I agree that your 992B U.S. Govt. would look better in your ORD. case.

I can't see any marking but I don't have it in hand.

Your 992B has the correct Hamilton #024 SS Montgomery Military dial and would nice in the Ordnance case.
 

topspin

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OK I bow to people with more knowledge than me on this, but it is a horrible dial. Compare the Waltham lettering with Kent's "Railway Dispatcher" example above, really primitive. The centre sunk part is just painted on crudely. I know standards slipped towards the end but even so....
Personally I think it's a beautiful dial, whatever it is.

It reminds me of these...

DSCN5682.JPG DSCN5749.JPG
 

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