Waltham 1892 model grades

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by MLH, Mar 10, 2017.

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  1. MLH

    MLH Registered User

    Dec 31, 2016
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    Hi guys: I have a question about the Walthams 1892 model pocket watches. When I read on the 1892 model research website, Walthams new creation was called the Vangard and was marked so on the watch movements. At some point it was changed to the name of a grade that lists Vangard, Appleton Tracy & Co., Crescent Street, P.S. Bartlett, & the 845. If someone has a Waltham 1892 Private Label watch that dose not have a grade name, how can you tell what grade it is. I see that there are differences in the damaskeening & the location of the serial number, and number of barrel bridge screw holes. The watch in question is # 7902754 produced in 1896, as I am new to watch collecting I don't recognize the small changes. It seems that the different grade names run throughout the 1892 model so how can you tell which grade it is.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] Thanks
     

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  2. Kent

    Kent Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    #2 Kent, Mar 10, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2017
    The fact is that you really can't tell. Even if a [main="Private Label Watch"]private label watch[/main] has a serial number right smack in the middle of a run known to be made up of a specific grade of watches there is still no guarantee that it is finished the same as that grade of watch.

    In this instance,as noted in your earlier thread, Waltham designated the run within which your watch was made as "Special". The run was made up of a group of different-named movements for which a factory description does not exist (and again, the finish of the watch depends solely on the contract with the private label retailer).
     
  3. MLH

    MLH Registered User

    Dec 31, 2016
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    Thanks Kent leave it to me to forget that my watch is a " special " and that is a grade as the others. I still would have thought that the features mentioned ( damaskeening, serial # location ) would indicate if it were a "Special" Vangard or Crescent Street. I do see your point that P. L. could have been finished differently by the jeweler.
     
  4. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Looks more like a Crescent St. than a Vanguard grade.
     
  5. Jerry Treiman

    Jerry Treiman Registered User
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    I agree with Greg. The finish of the winding wheels and damaskeening are more typical of the Crescent St. grade.
     
  6. John Cote

    John Cote Registered User
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    Aug 26, 2000
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    To me the thing that matters about this watch is that it is a cool private label. I could care less about the grade...This is a great watch. Congrats.
     
  7. ben_hutcherson

    ben_hutcherson Registered User
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    Often times, placing a watch grade is difficult by virtue of the fact that certain parts can be upfinished or down-finished relative to other grades.

    I agree on the WWs being Crescent St. grade, but I'd be interested in seeing a close-up of the balance wheel. It looks like a Vanguard grade part to me.
     
  8. MLH

    MLH Registered User

    Dec 31, 2016
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    Well guys that is why I posed the question to people who really know these things. I thought there would be different designs for each grade that would differentiate them from each other, or the year they were made in. So you think I have a 1892 Crescent Street " Speical " made about 1896. Thanks for the help and if you come across any other examples or information about Louis H. Jerger P. L. I would surely appriciate it.
     
  9. MLH

    MLH Registered User

    Dec 31, 2016
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    John: I to think private labels are cool. I just wanted to know everything I can about my watch thus the question about what grade it is. There are so many grades and I'm to new at this to know which is which. I will hopefully post some better photos of the balance wheel for Ben to ponder wheather it is a Vangard or Crecent Street. Some photos on the model 1892 research website under movement variations - winding wheel patterns style 2 is found on Riverside & early ATCs. That pattern looks like those on my watch so it might be ether of those grades. Anyway here's the photos.[​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     

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  10. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    You mentioned "finish by the jeweler" in one of the posts above. We need to clarify that Waltham finished the watch as you see it except for the case. The purchaser could select from a menu of options to get the result he wanted but all the work was done by Waltham (or the other manufacturer for other makes). When you find a watch that is totally out of scope for the basic model and other markings, that is almost always a watch that was finished by an employee of the factory on his own time. We call those "employee specials" and they do not seem to have any notation in the records since they do not represent the sales process.
     
  11. MLH

    MLH Registered User

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    You are right Tom, I guess I just phrased it wrong or misunderstood Kents statment (finish on the watch depends soley on the retailer) in one of the first post. I have learned from you guys that most all watches of this period were bought as movements. The person buying the watch would pick out the case & chain from the jewler. Thanks for keeping me in line. I'm still not sure about the possible grade, some say Crescent Street, The damascened on the winding wheels indicates a Riverside or early ATCs as per the 1892 website. Ben thought the balance wheel looks like a Vangard. So I guess I'm still looking for answers.
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    #12 Tom McIntyre, Mar 11, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2017
    In the case of this watch, you will not be able to assign a grade to it. Special is as good as you can do. You can determine the material grade of U, A or P by examining the pivots on the wheel and comparing them to other watches in that model where the material grade is known. This run of specials is marked P grade.

    You can use this link to provide information on the watch if I have it working correctly. http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php?osnumber=7902754

    It would be useful to have the private label information in the remarks section of the database for observations and any other information that can be found on the movement, dial or case.

    Oops! I see you have already done that. Thank you.
     
  13. MLH

    MLH Registered User

    Dec 31, 2016
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    Tom: I have exhausted all the sources I could find (post from you & other members, the 1892 website, google information) and your last post is right. Through it all I learned, it is a "Special" based on the Crecent Street movement (per the 1892 website, Special 21 Jewel Crecent Streets). The patterned gold star regulator were used on the Vangards, Crecent Street, & 845's grades. The pocket watch database gave me all the information on the serial #7902754. The damascend pattern on winding wheels are Riverside as per 1892 website. Found much information about the private label jeweler ( Louis H. Jerger Thomasville Ga. & his father Joseph A. Jerger). This watch has more aesthetic visual beauty than most of Walthams other grade pocket watches in my opinion. Just want to say thanks too everyone who helped, and I am still looking for other examples of Jerger pocket watches. Have a GREAT DAY
     
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