WALTHAM 0 SIZE WINDING SLEEVE THREAD?

Discussion in 'Watch Repair' started by Inspector Dano, May 4, 2018.

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  1. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Maybe someone can help me, I'm making a watch case for a 0 size Waltham seaside model 1891 movement, I'm ready to make the tube for the winding sleeve, but I have no idea what thread it is. the major diameter of the thread on the sleeve is .1537 inches, or 3.905mm. The TPI from what I can see using a thread count gauge is 64, the pitch is .0151 inches, or .385mm which works out to 66 TPI. I don't get it. Does anyone know?

    Thanks Dano.
     
  2. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Apr 13, 2014
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    I don't know if any of my amateur-machinist musings will help, but:

    I think the sleeve is likely to be 3.90mm dia, 0.4mm pitch. Your 64tpi gauge would be very close. The sleeve is Waltham #165 which I see called out in assortments as "diameter 21". It looks like these call 6mm "diameter 0" and the formula for their diameter code (this is not my fault) is

    diameter in mm = 6.0 - 0.1*D

    So like stem threads, the larger numbers are smaller diameters.

    This means you'd start with a hole about 3.90 - 0.4*sqrt(3) = 3.21 mm, and tap it. If you're using a soft metal, you could maybe just file some notches in a spare sleeve to make a tap. Otherwise you could single-point it on (conveniently enough) either an inch (64) or metric (0.4) lathe. I'd test in some brass rod first, and figure out depths that make the sleeve screw in and be tight. Carbide single point internal threading cutters with minimum minor size 0.1 inch aren't too pricy. Conveniently I also notice 3.21mm is very close to 1/8inch.

    I would love to see more about your casemaking!
     
  3. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Chris, I’ll post some pic’s.
     
  4. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Chris, very strange threading system. I’ll post some pic’s to show how I made out.
     
  5. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    Dano, I (surprisingly easily) found an example of one of those sleeves here. Mine measures 3.94 diameter, which I think is probably actually 5/32 inch major diameter. I have a good starrett metric thread gauge and under the microscope I see that the sleeve's pitch is just a tad smaller than 0.40mm. I am about 90% sure the correct thread is 5/32-64. Unfortunately my thread wires are at the other shop so I can't give you the PD. I bet this was an ad-hoc continuation of the UNEF series that goes down to #12-32 in my old machinery's handbook.
     
  6. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Chris, great information. I’m actually going to attempt to make a tap, I have a feeling I’ll have to make more than one tube
    Before I’m successful. 5/32-64 unef
    talk about a special thread. Again I’ll post some pics when I get a usable tube. Thanks again.
     
  7. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    4E9F5261-C418-4AE0-86E1-83BFE5923B9D.jpeg D5108B6A-8BD7-4C8B-9058-4AB1058AF07C.jpeg 2356BF27-1C58-41CB-AA5A-7853FDB32F98.jpeg 3644840B-8782-4A36-AC34-E6E9B6B6916F.jpeg 3C7F0F4C-069D-472E-A66E-7EB87532A7C5.jpeg Hey Chris, just wanted to share some pictures, 1st one is my concept, and the rest are progressing thru the build, it’s a three piece case made out of copper. The back was made to accept an exhibition crystal, machined to a snap fit secured with 0-80 button head screws. The middle was stepped in the ID to hold the movement snug, and secured with the two case screws. The bezel was machined to a snap fit, also secured with 0-80 screws. The lugs you see are not the ones I’m using, I just wanted to get a feel for how it’s coming out. I’ll take more pictures as I fit the winding tube, the crown protector, and lugs. As you know life happens we get busy so it will take a bit to finish.
     
  8. Chris Radek

    Chris Radek Registered User
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    How awesome! That's going to be really neat. 0 size is perfect for a wristwatch. I love the look of the socket head cap screws on the front. I like the color - had not ever considered copper for a watch case - I guess people wear copper bracelets and it doesn't corrode or turn skin green? I have not ever had one.

    Wishing you success with your tapping. It's kind of a nightmare to machine isn't it. Copper is glue that looks like metal, haha. I've heard old-timers used milk as cutting fluid with copper, but I only know that as a rumor, not anyone's direct experience.

    How will you solder it? Or will it all be assembled with threads and screws?
     
  9. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Chris, there is two reasons why I made it out of copper, one it's what I had on hand, two I like the steampunk look. I also have access to a plater. I haven't yet decided if I want to go that route. Ya copper is a funny material, very burry, and gummy. I will silver solder, and screw parts on the case. I recently started on the crown protector, I think I'll have a bit of filing, and grinding to finish it. Well that's it for now, I'll post more pictures as I finish more. IMG_20180512_191820_hdr.jpg
     
  10. oic55

    oic55 Registered User

    Aug 21, 2009
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    Hi Dano,

    A little late to the game...but hope you find this table some help. This can be found in Levin's "Practical Benchwork for Horologists" This table calls out the various threads used for pendants in watch cases.

    Pendant Tap Info.JPG

    Don

    upload_2018-5-22_21-39-49.jpeg
     
    trim likes this.
  11. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Don, better late than never! I don't have any books on that cover case repair or manufacture, so this is very helpful. I've
    gotten very busy, and haven't got back to working on it, so your timing is perfect.

    Thanks again!
    Dano
     
  12. trim

    trim Registered User
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    Feb 19, 2010
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    Thanks I needed that too! I've been looking for this info for ages.
     
  13. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Ya 66 TPI is tough, so I'm going to try .4mm lead, it's very close, I guess we'll see.
     
  14. trim

    trim Registered User
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    Should be able to cut 66tpi on an imperial lathe
     
  15. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Unfortunatly I only have gearing up to 56 tpi on my lathe, then I have to figure out the lead in mm’s
     
  16. oic55

    oic55 Registered User

    Aug 21, 2009
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    Hi Dano,

    Glad the table was of help. There is also a good book on making a pocket watch case that is written by Steffen Pahlow. The title is "The Classical Pocket-Watch-Case" . The author covers a hunter case and includes info on the pendant as well as pushers. There is also a section on tooling for forming and spinning the various parts. There are a lot of detailed illustrations. Watchprint dot com carries it. Mr. Pahlow is a German watchmaker and also has videos on you tube. Some great info.



    Don
     
  17. Jack_W

    Jack_W Registered User
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    Mar 8, 2010
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    Like Trim, I've been trying to hunt down this info too. Even wrote to the NAWCC research librarian recently. I did not receive this as a suggestion with the response to my inquiry. The above reply is far more satisfactory.

    Levin's book is in the library too. Ain't an inexpense book either but it is available via the normal used-book retailers.

    Pahlow's book is not in the library, but there is this thread with contact info: Has anyone read "The Classical Pocket Watch Case"

    I've already sent an email to inquire about availability. From the website, it seems that it should be.
     
  18. Jack_W

    Jack_W Registered User
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    I now have a copy of the English edition and have found it to be informative. I also tracked down a copy of the Levins's book, the 1950 8th edition. Really great reference.
     
  19. Inspector Dano

    Inspector Dano Registered User

    Dec 8, 2017
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    Thanks Jack, I will look for that publication. Unfortunately I have been so busy, and my machines are all tied up I have not been able to get back to working on the case, a bittersweet situation. This is how far I got. 326A723F-D70A-4501-BC51-E4F8B7E73288.jpeg 9993A5E3-1012-4A5A-AF02-1924681E0A08.jpeg
     

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