Wall Clock, Chain driven, pinecone weights

Discussion in 'Your Newest Clock Acquisition' started by MDean, Sep 9, 2011.

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  1. MDean

    MDean Registered User

    Jun 7, 2010
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    Wall Clock, Chain driven, pine cone weights

    I purchased this wall clock today at an Estate Sale.
    I attempted to do some research but did not get anywhere.
    Is there a generic style name for this clock?

    Country of origin? I did not see a manufacturers name or mark.
    I believe the top decoration is a replacement. The holes for it do
    not match up with some older holes. There are two holes on the bottom
    so there should be some sort of dercoration there also.

    If anyone has pictures of similar clocks I would like to see those.
    Maybe there are some already on the board but I do not know what to
    use for search criteria.

    Please note the pictures of the back door. There is a name that ends in "erer". The first letter may be a P but I'm having trouble determining the others. There is also a date 11/11/28. I would assume 1928.There is also a number that may be the cost 34.95... ?

    I would appreciate any comments relating to this clock.
    Emit
     

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  2. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
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    I would say you have a nice Wag.Not sure about age.They are a common clock and i like them.Another type is the Postmans clock.
    Nice find.:)
     
  3. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Nice find, Emit. That anchor bridge is very distinctive, but I don't recall seeing it identified. It looks like a butterfly. It's quite definately German craftmanship.
     
  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    I work at the Veritas Tools machine shop.
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    Harold what age would you give to that clock 1890,s.
     
  5. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    That would be a good guess, Kevin. They were made over a long period, right up into the 20th century. If we can pin down a maker to that butterfly anchor bridge, we may narrow it down.
     
  6. MDean

    MDean Registered User

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    I see that there are some stampings with Xs and dots. I wonder what those mean?
     

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  7. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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  8. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Emit asks in part: "I see that there are some stampings with Xs and dots. I wonder what those mean?"

    We often see various symbols marked into the parts of clocks. They are, I believe, "match marks" made by the craftsman who fitted the wheels and levers in the frame. I think the xxxx /.... indicates "movement number forty-nine" in a series of perhaps eighty or a hundred clock movements.

    The craftsman worked on dozens of these at a sitting. The vertical pillars had to be precisely (more or less) to the movement frame and each required some hand work with tools to fit properly. He marked each of the major parts with a serial number. Then, days later all 160 or so pillars were fitted with brass bushings en mass. Finally, days or weeks later, all the frames, pillars and wheels were assembled using the matching numbers thus assuring all the hand fitted parts were married back together.

    The use of match marks is commonly used in any production process where parts if an assembly are hand fitted then disassembled and sent to be polished and coated at a different work station. Then later all the pieces are reassembled using white gloves.
     
  9. laprade

    laprade Banned

    Sep 10, 2008
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    I posted one of those, a few months ago, in connection with the front bushing for the anchor arbor. If you could find the time to extract the movement, and show us a pic of the front, it might show a variation or even a known holder: they are a stamped bird or animal shape, and some of them are known.

    http://www.mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=68621
     
  10. MDean

    MDean Registered User

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    Laprade: As you requested here is a picture of the front of the Movement
    I see the initials MF stamped on the lower base of the movement.
    Interestingly the Anchor Bridge has an M. Maybe not intentionally but by design. I read all the posts on the links provided and appreciate all the information associated with this clock.

    Harold, looks like you also worked on one like this model in July of 2010.
    Eckmill, thanks for the explanation of the Craftsmans matchmarks.
    Veritas, thanks for starting me in the right direction - Wag clock.

    Zep had provided a lot of info on Harolds 7/2010 thread. I attached one of the catalog pictures he provided.

    I guess the "butterfly" anchor bridge can add to the continuing interest & research for this specific topic.
    Emit
     

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  11. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Emit,

    your clock was probably made by A. Maier, St. Georgen, BF,
    a home industry clockmaker.
    The anchor bridge is in fact "A M".

    Jurgen
     
  12. MDean

    MDean Registered User

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    EXCELLENT Jurgen, Thank you very much for the information!
     
  13. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    I have a Wag on Wall with a anchor bridge that has "A M". But the one I have is a spring driven t/s movement.

    H/C
     
  14. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #14 zepernick, Sep 12, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2011
    As noted above, these various features and markings have been mentioned previously, if in passing, here on the Message Board.

    However, for those with more than a passing interest in traditional Black Forest clocks and clockmaking:), it might be noted that they've been treated at some length -- including the Schottenwerk, the Schotten-type movement and the Schottenuhren, the genre for clocks which were commonly fit with these movements -- in the literature.

    There's not much, indeed, there's very little that's specific in English-language books. By contrast, there are quite a few articles -- most appearing in CLOCKS magazine -- which do treat them at length. Indeed, a horosexy Schottenwerk recently made the cover of a 2010 issue. That the author of some of these articles is a member of my family, is not something you have to live with. And that said, the following two are most relevant:

    -- "The Names on the Beast," a two-part, ten-page article about "deciphering the markings on Black Forest clocks," in the December 2000 (Part I) and January 2001 (Part II) issues of CLOCKS. Includes e.g. framemakers' marks, batch marks, signatures, trademarkings (such as the AM) and so on.

    -- "Something Old & Something New", a two-part, eleven-page article that emphasizes the Schottenuhren during the end of the transitional era when the factories were taking over from the cottage industry. In short, the same period from around that turn of the centuries when the clock in this thread was made. It appeared in the June and July 2010 issues.

    And one thing quite interesting about this particular example is that it has characteristics of both. In the earlier period, a batch would usually be around a half-dozen, and so marked. Schaaf notes in the standard reference Schwarzwalduhren (2008) that he's never seen any from that (pre-factory) era that had a number/marking over eight.

    Then the factories such as A. Maier get involved. As one might expect, there were some specialist (usually small) firms that turned out large numbers of wood frames for the factories. And some factories would make their own. Yet there were also the many so-called homeworkers, people employed, often families, to assemble movements at home and do other hand fitting, etc. In not a few instances, the number of homeworkers outnumbered those actually working in the factory.

    And so we start to see movements marked with larger "batch" numbers. But unlike the earlier period, when a "clockmaker" was working on a half-dozen or so, the wheels etc. usually aren't also marked (say, with three notches on the crossings). The metal work is now being made in the factory. Still, the two removable uprights need to be fit to each frame. And are still so marked.

    The use of what A. Maier called a Hakenblech (see the upper, right-hand corner of their ad, below) with their initials was announced in a trade ad in 1903.The full trademark itself was also registered in 1903 (also below).

    They claimed that someone had been offering and selling some Black Forest wall-clocks clocks of a good quality as if from A. Maier -- and some might have been theirs. But also some inferior clocks had been offered and sold as if from A. Maier. As a result, clockmakers should note that all of theirs are marked with their trademark. It's that old "don't be fooled by lesser imitations...."

    The "Schwarzwälder (in Schwarzwälder Wand-Uhren) was understood to mean -- and was often so defined in e.g. tariff and customs regulations -- clocks which had movements with wood-frames. In other words, it was not dependent on whether the clock had, say, a "shield" or looked like the one up above.

    Regards
    Zepernick
     

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  15. MDean

    MDean Registered User

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    Zep, Thank you very much for taking the time to provide such detailed helpful information. History is what I enjoy the most about collecting clocks. I have already ordered some back issues of Clocks Magazine.

    I also read some of your other posts in older threads that are linked.

    I'm not concerned about getting a "early date" on this clock. I belive the 1928 date on the back indicates the proper time period.
    Emit
     
  16. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Emit --

    One of the best benefits of being an NAWCC Member is having access to the world's finest horological library, the Library & Research Center. And they have a full set, "needless to say" :), of CLOCKS, among other horological magazines and journals. In short, you might want to check with Sharon Gordon or Nancy Dyer to see if they can send scans of the articles.

    Then spend the money saved on more Black Forest clocks!

    Regards
    Zep
     
  17. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    It's not just that the short-term memory is shorter. It's getting dwarfish:). But had meant to attach this corner of a photo (below) to the earlier posting about wood-frame movements, batches, etc.

    It that shows some workmen in Kienzle's branch factory in Komotau, where Schwarzwälder-type clocks were still being made after the turn of the century. It was part of a larger photo that appeared in a 1908 Festschrift on the occasion of their 25th anniversary.

    Some of the wood-frames appear to be for the Schotten-type movements.

    Zepernick
     

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  18. satturk48

    satturk48 New Member

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    Hello. Im new here but was delighted to find some reference to a clock I have had for 25 years. It also has a M.F. mark on the front but is different in style to the one covered in this thread. I have included some pictures that maybe of interest to someone.
     

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  19. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Satturk, welcome to the Message Board.
    Your clock is, I believe, what they called a "Stollenwerk" in the Black Forest, due to
    the protruding wallspacing dowels on the back of the movement.
    Full metal arbors, wheels, EW and strip pallets suggest a relatively late date, as does the
    convex dial shield with the lithographical picture.
    The initials often found on movement base plates usually are those of the frame maker.
    Wheels, frames, dials, etc., were already being supplied by specialized house industry shops
    as early as, say, 1840.
    If you like, we can move your post to the Wood Movement Clocks Forum; that's where the
    experts on ye olde BF clocks are. Just drop us a line.
     
  20. satturk48

    satturk48 New Member

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    Thank you very much for the information and the welcome. I was young when I bought this clock and have waited a long time for this information. I just put it here as the initials MF were relevant but please feel free to move it if it will be of more use elsewhere. Any information will be much appreciated.
     
  21. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    With great trepidation, I suggest that the initials M.F so nicely stamped into the front edge of the lower plate on the movement shown by satturk48 could possibly belong to M. Fedderjahn of Berlin.

    My hesitancy is on account of the source, Kochmann's Watch and Clock Trademark Index, a handy volume not known for accuracy.

    Fedderjahn would most likely have been a retailing merchant and not the movement frame maker. Berlin was not known to have clockmaking cottage craft.
     
  22. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Yes, it might be M. Fadderjahn, listed in a 1904 address book for Berlin.
    There is not much, if anything known, about him, though.
    Of course there were other "MFs" around, too.
    I couldn't find any markings to compare with, sorry.

    MFadderjahn.jpg
     
  23. satturk48

    satturk48 New Member

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    Thank you all so much for the information you have provided.
     
  24. Tmaier

    Tmaier New Member

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    Clock was made by A. Maier (Victoria Clock Co.) in St. Georgen in the Black Forest. My great grandfather Andreas Maier started the company 160 years ago. The company still exists, however they no longer make clocks.
     
  25. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

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    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    I have a reference to the Andreas Maier company. From the book pictured. (Schwarzwald-uhren) By Berthold Schaaf. The author is a friend of mine and ill be glad to link him with any interested parties looking for a copy of the book. Its a fantastic reference.
    And let me pause:.... and catch my breath..... Mister "T Maier", DIRECT LINEAGE of the Maier clock dynasty has posted on this thread... Well folks... as far as history and researching goes, it does not get much better than that... WOW! how exciting. :) Thanks Mr Maier, that made my day! :)




    1.jpg 2.jpg
     
  26. ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG

    ANTIQUECUCKOOCLOCK.ORG Registered User

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    COLLECTOR, RESTORER, PRESERVER, TRADER.
    I did not see an answer to the initial question, What style is it... this is called a Biedermeier style.. referring to the overall style of the decorations, Like Art deco or rococo...
    Nice piece too... As Harold pointed out these were made for quite a long time.. probably close to 50 or 60 years without much change. I think an accurate date on it, might elude us.
     

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