VV Torsion clock escapment cylinder

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by kumite, Feb 5, 2014.

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  1. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! I am pleased to present unpublished anywhere clock with cylinder escapement. Clock made entirely by hand in 99.9% of the original in very good condition. The clock is in my possession for 10 years. Please help to establish the origin.
    Regards Peter


    VV1.jpg VV2.jpg VV3.jpg VV4.jpg VV5.jpg
     
  2. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    #2 kumite, Feb 5, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2014
    continued

    Dimensions Height 27cm glass. Diameter 14cm. Thickness of about 3.8mm

    VV9.jpg VV8.jpg VV7.jpg VV6.jpg
     
  3. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    continued

    The angle of rotation of the pendulum 360 degrees

    VV11.jpg VV10.jpg VV13.jpg
     
  4. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    continued

    VV15.jpg VV12.jpg
     
  5. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    continued

    VV16.jpg VV14.jpg
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Peter, thanks VERY much for posting the photos of your cylinder escapement torsion clock. You have what appears to be a very rare example that may be an original prototype for the Gustav Becker cylinder escapement 400-Day torsion clock that was first made commercially in late 1872. The GB clock design appears to be virtually identical to your clock, and this version was made from 1872 to 1874. We have seven examples documented during those years including one that I own as seen in the following photos:

    80207 Back.jpg 80207 Front.jpg 80207 Back Plate.jpg 80207 Escape Top.jpg 80207 Mvmt Side 2.jpg

    As can be seen this clock and yours have almost identical features including the cylinder escapement design, the back plate layout, the winding bridge at the front of the movement below the dial, the design of the base, and several other features. The only difference I see is the decoration of the pendulums and the pivot bridge on the back plate has a slightly different shape.

    The clocks documented so far with this exact design have serial numbers from 60055 to 80210.

    The basic clock design with cylinder escapement but with a much fancier front/dial was made from 1875 to 1901. Here is a view of an 1875 model:

    105137 Front 2.jpg 105137 GB Back.jpg
    The later models were essentially the same although there were some changes to the escapement layout and there were two different versions of the dial plate. Otherwise the clocks remained essentially unchanged from the first one made to the last. Including the seven clocks already mentioned we have a total of 22 of these clocks now in our database. Yours will be the 23rd, and of particular importance as it most definitely seems to be one of the very first made if not the actual first prototype.

    Once again thanks very much for posting!!
     
  7. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! John! Department of 400 days-clocks is best conducted. I have read everything on the subject. I still have many questions about the clock. Some parts of it made ​​were not used later. Some elements are different than in GB production
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Yes, I can see there are some differences between your clock and the production models. That is not unusual when a completely new clock design is being perfected, and in fact we have documented other changes that were made after commercial production started and across the years of production.

    As I have studied the photos of your clock I am even more convinced that it is one of the first examples made of this design if not the original prototype. My conclusion is based on the observation that there are many more similarities than there are differences, at least to the extent we can see from the photos. It would be very useful to exchange information about physical measurements to provide a basis for comparison. I am thinking of some simple measurements such as plate dimensions, distance between pivots on the movement plates, and a tooth count of all the gears in the movement train among others. I will measure my clock and report the results and would appreciate if you could also measure yours for comparison. I will look forward to see what is confirmed.
     
  9. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Okey John! I'll try to do it, but give me some time. The clock is now in motion. Requires accurate measurement and counting. I'll help my Polish colleagues and we will do it according to your description. Regards Peter.
     
  10. Shayne

    Shayne Registered User

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    #10 Shayne, Feb 6, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
    Peter great clock you are a very lucky man . John I am just wondering if the markings on the back plate WP 10 could stand for Working Prototype no 10 if so there could have been more than one and let's hope they show up some day .
    It could also have some connection to Peters location Warsaw Poland .
    I also see some punch marks around the pivot hole made some sort of final adjustment

    If this was a prototype wonder how it ever left the factory , such a clock would have been top secret project
    or one of the engineers designed and tweaked it at home .

    Interesting stuff
    Shayne
     
  11. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! Step by step and find out everything. First, we compare the measurements, and then think together referred to as the signature. In Poland, the World War II I caused the damage and it does not matter where the clock. Warsaw before the clock was in Kielce. Certainly prototypes could be more. It's standard procedure. The more that these clocks have been in trouble with the good work.

    Pozdrawiam Piotr
     
  12. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    While they could have used the word, "Werk"/"Werke", it would have been probably more likely they would say "Arbeit", though "Prototyp" could fit.
    I know in militaria, gun and knife collectors can tell Polish Army items by that stamp.
    "Wojsko Polskie" - "Polish Army"

    Another possibility for the "W" is "Willmann" as A. Willman had agreements with Harder and was one of the six smaller Freiberg companies absorbed by Becker. I think Terwilliger must've had that idea as well given the "A. Willmann?" questioned entry for clock number 3 in section 6 of the guide.
     
  13. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! Martinm, VV, and P has nothing to do with the Polish Army. The clock is derived from Freiburg in Schliesen currently Świebodzice. Let's wait for the measurement of clock design.


    I greet
    peter
     
  14. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    perhaps it´s not a W at all. If You blow up the respective pics,You can see that its actually two V´s struck at little different heights,that seem to form a W. I don´t know if this is of any significance,but I´m sure that the Willmann firm-being well in production at the time this clock was made-had an apropriate stamp with a W.Could it mean"double 5"in roman numbers meaning 10 in arabic numbers? But what is P then?
    just my 0.02cts
    Burkhard
     
  15. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! This is a double V on 100% ...... This may be the initials of watchmakers. I still suggest you wait for the clock measurements and John will check with his clock.


    Regards
    Peter
     
  16. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! I've included details:
    Drum drive 88 teeth
    1 gearwhell 72/12
    2 gearwhell 70/12
    3 gearwheel 78/10
    4 wheel rim / 12


    Other data in the scan


    VV19.jpg
    Regards

    Piotr
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Peter, thanks very much for posting the technical information. I will be posting the same for my clock on Saturday, I'm not where I can obtain that data right now.
     
  18. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    #18 kumite, Feb 7, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
    continue
    The wheel rim 96/12
    escpament cylinder has a simple, no broken arm and lower bridge


    Piotr


    VV17.jpg
     
  19. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Ok! John. I'll be waiting, and probably others, what you say and what you think.


    Regards
    Peter
     
  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'm guessing the pinion on the escapement wheel is 8 leaves. That would
    make it 8 BPM.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    8? I do not understand the court is 8 The pendulum moves 7.5 seconds per side. On the two sides is 15 sec. That's it?


    Regards
    Peter
     
  22. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    I'm sorry if it comes to the division of the coronary wheel, so
    Regards
    Peter
     
  23. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Ok, 7.5 bpm calculates the contrate wheel as being 90 tooth with a
    8 tooth pinion on the escapement wheel. I believe the escapement has 20 teeth?
    Here is the math:

    2 * (20/8) * x = 7.5 * 60
    x= 90

    I tried other counts for the pinion I get:
    7 tooth then x = 78.75
    9 tooth then x = 101.25
    6 tooth then x = 67.5
    I believe your 7.5 bph number but not the 96.
    If it is 8 bph, it would be:

    2 * (20/8) * x = 8 * 60
    x= 96

    That matches your 96 count.
    One or the other is not right,
    96 tooth at 8 bpm or
    90 tooth at 7.5 bpm.


    Tinker Dwight
     
  24. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Tinker, Peter said that the pendulum turns 7.5 seconds in each direction (one beat), not that it was running at 7.5 beats per minute. 7.5 seconds per beat is 8 beats per minute. Your calculations showing 8 BPM with a 8-leaf pinion on the escape arbor appear correct to me with a 20 tooth escape wheel.
     
  25. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Hi! I confirm that the wheel rim is 96/12. The rythm of a clock to 7.5 seconds in one direction. Full rotation of 15 seconds.

    Regards Peter

    VV21.jpg
     
  26. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    While they could have used the word, "Werk"/"Werke", it would have been probably more likely they would say "Arbeit", though "Prototyp" could fit.

    Hi! On request, the bigger picture yet. VV is made ​​of one type. Maybe some of you recognize the type of writing
    I like the idea of VV, it WERKE


    Regards
    Peter



    VV22.jpg
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Thank John for straightening us both out.
    He was talking seconds per swing and I was taking half swings
    per minute ( beat ).
    We were both right at the start.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  28. MR55

    MR55 Registered User

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    I guess that means V V P = experimental device prototype. In Deutsch = Versuchs-Vorrichtung Prototyp

    Matthias
     
  29. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    #29 kumite, Feb 9, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2014
    Iperimental device prototype. In Deutsch = Versuchs-Vorrichtung Prototyp guess that means V V P = ex

    Matthias


    Very valuable attention Matthias. I think that the issue of signature after your entry explained. Thank you very much.

    Piotr
     
  30. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    #30 kumite, Feb 16, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
    Hi! I'll have the English name of this part of the clock.

    VV4.jpg

    John! Is it possible to create a glossary of clock parts. This will help us to communicate.

    In the section Permanent Threads add topic Names Clock Parts, photo and description

    Regards Piotr
     
  31. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Piotr, this part has two or three names that I am familiar with. First is "Center Wheel" being the arbor on which the minute hand is placed. Second is "Minute Wheel" which is a variant of Center Wheel, both names actually represent the same meaning. The gear itself is called a "Contrate Wheel", which enables a right-angle transmission of power.
     
  32. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    Piotr, this part has two or three names that I am familiar with. First is "Center Wheel" being the arbor on which the minute hand is placed. Second is "Minute Wheel" which is a variant of Center Wheel, both names actually represent the same meaning. The gear itself is called a "Contrate Wheel", which enables a right-angle transmission of power.

    Hi John! So in this thread, this part plays a double role. Minute & Contrate Whell.


    Thank you for your help
    I greet
    Piotr
     
  33. kumite

    kumite Registered User

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    <font size="4">[video=youtube;aJtrx5dfg08]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJtrx5dfg08[/video]
    Pro Publico Bono
    Regards
    Piotr
     
  34. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

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    Hello

    Now that I also have a clock with the ominous letters on the board,
    I would like to participate in the discussion with a contribution.

    First, the photo below shows that the letters waren't necessary punched with the same tools.
    The size, determined by me only by photos, seems different.
    Incidentally, the "W" and the "P" of my clock are exactly 4 mm high. The height of the "6" is only 3 mm.
    The letters on Piotr's clock seem a little bit higher.
    Maybe Piotr measures the height of the letters on his clock again , and tell us the result.

    I think, it's a fact. On my clock is a "W"!. See details in the circles!

    Two "V" would hardly be punched so precise. In addition, see the long end of the "W", very different to the middle.

    For the clock of Piotr, it could be, that trying to punch a "W" with two "V" failed, for what reason ever.

    Now my attempt to interpret the two letters:

    Why not?

    "W" stands for WERK - a term quite common in Germany.
    "P" stands for PROTO - preceding word-formation element with the meaning: "first, advance, pre-,
    originally

    Of course, this too is just an attempt to explain.

    DieteR

    Messen 02.jpg
     
  35. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    I have no answers to the questions put foreward here,but like to ad one or two remarks: In Piotr´s clock,the W is clearly built up from two V´s,they have a small gap between them and don´t stand on the same (virtual) line.In Dieter´s clock,the W is allmost perfect,no gap,no difference in height etc.OTOH on Dieter´s clock the W is set verry near the barrel arbor allmost touching the hole which looks a bit negligent to me.And there was enough room to the left side to place it clear the barrel arbor´s bearing..In Piotr´s clock,the letters are placed symmetrically on the back plate.
    Re to the meaning of the letters : W for "Werk" sounds convincing and suitable but "Proto" is a greek prefix,in Germany never used for itself and alone but allways in the loanword "Prototyp".No German native speaker would use the expression "Protowerk" or "Werk-Proto". Sorry but that doesn´t convince me:?|
    Looking forward to other opinions...
    Best regards
    Burkhard
     
  36. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    I should have added to the earlier discussion, in which A. Willmann was mentioned, that I have serious doubts that Willmann had anything to do with either of these two prototype clocks. Willmann was an ex-employee of Gustav Becker who founded his company mid-1871 and focused on Vienna-style gravity pendulum wall clocks similar to Gustav Becker production. His company and the other "children" companies in Freiburg that were formed by ex-employees of GB were in direct competition with GB and not exactly on friendly terms. His involvement with A. Harder in 1878-1880 is the only clearly documented attempt by Willmann to make torsion pendulum clocks; at which time his factory was well-established and this activity would also be in competition with the GB cylinder escapement clocks.

    The two clocks under discussion remind me of the first 12 prototypes made by August Schatz for Harder. Among those were two different back plate layouts with rear winding for table clocks and one front-wind design for a wall clock. Thus, it isn't at all unusual that GB could have made multiple designs as they explored what would work best as well as looking at what the market could be for the clocks.
     

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