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vienna regulators w/ blue dial numbers?

bruce linde

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just got this (and will post more photos later). i was told by someone (who should know) that it is thought the blue-number-dials were made in 1847 to honor that royal year Emperor Franz Josef came into power... and referred to as 'royal' clocks.

can anyone speak to this?

_caiw.jpg
 
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new2clocks

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just got this (and will post more photos later). i was told by someone (who should know) that it is thought the blue-number-dials were made in 1847 to honor that royal year Emperor Franz Josef came into power... and referred to as 'royal' clocks.

can anyone speak to this?

View attachment 660361
Bruce,

AFAIK, the reign of Franz Joesph I of Austria commenced in 1848, so the 1847 is close to the year his reign began. Not sure of the "royal blue" connection.

Based on the limited information your picture shows, my guess would be that the clock was made perhaps twenty years later in the mid to late 1860s, which would also be the time when he was corornated King of Hungary.

This is all speculation and my memory of the history of the Austro-Hungarian Empire could be off. More pictures of the movement and dial of the clock will narrow the date of manufacture.

Regards.
 
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Schatznut

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Wow, Bruce - that's a real beauty!
 

bruce linde

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AFAIK, the reign of Franz Joesph I of Austria commenced in 1848, so the 1847 is close to the year his reign began. Not sure of the "royal blue" connection. Based on the limited information your picture shows, my guess would be that the clock was made perhaps twenty years later in the mid to late 1860s, which would also be the time when he was corornated King of Hungary.
well, he was crowned initially in december of 1848, so if blue dial numbers were a nod to royal transitions, i would say 1849 would be a more probably date for (if i may) 'phase I'. if, as you say, 'phase II' would be 1867-1868, we might have a way to date these.

here are more photos...


ca_dial_hands.jpg ca_1.jpg ca_5.jpg ca_2.jpg ca_4.jpg ca_7.jpg ca_suspension_hanger.jpg ca_back.jpg ca_bob_case_back.jpg ca_suspension.jpg ca_side_view.jpg ca_verge.jpeg ca_crutch.jpg
 

bruce linde

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another comment from the resource who offered the blue dial numbers 'royal' theory:

"your clock seems to me a transitional. obviously, there were no hard and fast rules. Phil Rasch describes the Biedermeier period from 1835 to 1848 and transitional from 1850 to 1885. So, obviously there are grey areas."
 

leeinv66

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A stunning clock. Congratulations on the acquisition. I also would have put a later date on it's manufacture. Maybe, 1860ish. I have seen blue number dials before, but I have not read anything about a royal connection. I'd be interested to hear more about that theory. Is it a month runner?
 

bruce linde

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i believe so... five gears between the plates, winds counter-clockwise.... :)
 
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MUN CHOR-WENG

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I have this German made Junghans table clock that was made around 1888 / 1889 with black numerals and hand painted blue decorative pattern on the enamel dial. The enamel insert on the R A pendulum is also decorated with blue decorative pattern. Very few Junghans clocks have been documented with this attractive blue feature.

Mun C W


1624678182449.jpeg 1624678259989.jpeg 1624678296689.jpeg 1624678321903.jpeg 1624678354072.jpeg
 
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bruce linde

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interesting, and a connection is certainly possible... but as i look at your clock i think more of the french double-dial regulators that used blue accent colors.

on the other hand, i have now seen multiple vienna regulators with blue dial numbers... and i'm trying to find out whether there was a special significance to them.
 

leeinv66

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i believe so... five gears between the plates, winds counter-clockwise....
And the huge diameter of the winding drum. I'm surprised by the look of the weight. Month runners are often power hungry, but that weight looks relatively small. When it arrives, please post its mass.
 

jmclaugh

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Very nice and I'd also say it is a transitional style, is the name on the dial of any help in dating?
 

JTD

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Very nice and I'd also say it is a transitional style, is the name on the dial of any help in dating?

Abeler does not list Carl Albrecht. He may well be the retailer - if I can find out any more about him I will come back.

JTD
 

JTD

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Further to my post above, I have searched the Vienna records from 1859 and random years thereafter and cannot find a Carl Albrecht working with clocks.

This surprises me somewhat, as these records are usually quite reliable and comprehensive. Perhaps 1859 is not early enough, though I would have supposed it would be.

If I find something more I will report back.

JTD
 

bruce linde

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the original weight had been removed and was MIA. when you say 'power hungry'... what weight should i be looking for?

btw, currently using a slightly beefier looking 5 lb weight (2" x 4").... stopped once but i think the hands rubbed... we'll see.
 

bruce linde

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And the huge diameter of the winding drum. I'm surprised by the look of the weight. Month runners are often power hungry, but that weight looks relatively small. When it arrives, please post its mass.

leeinv66 - the 5+ lb weight almost seems unnecessary .... and its currently running on 4 lbs 5 oz, with a pendulum amplitude of just over the I's on the beat plate. i ordered a 4 lb .05 oz weight from timesavers because the current weight has been a bit beat up.... i did go through the movement and get everything spinning with the slightest touch, so hoping the timesavers weight will do the trick.

i also reached out to three different clock repair places in austria and asked them if they knew of any significance or story behind the blue dial numbers... we'll see if anyone responds. i also sent an email to rick ortenburger, but he hasn't updated his blog since 2019....
 
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leeinv66

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Ok, 5 lb is about what I would expect. It just locked more petite in the picture. I don't mind a few bumps and scratched on the weights it adds character :)
 

bruce linde

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rick ortenburger says he doesn’t know… but to keep him posted.

Anyone have any suggestions on older vienna regulator experts who might help us zero in on finding an answer?
 

new2clocks

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Bruce,

Like others, I have seen blue numerals on clocks, albeit not that many.

As I recall, they were French made clocks.

A possibility is that this clock was made for the French market.

Another possibility, I suppose, is this clock was made for a Bavarian customer as that color blue, if I am not mistaken, was in the Bavarian flag at the time the clock was most likely made (IMO, the 1860s). Also in the mid-1860s, the Austrians and the Prussians were at war for a short period of time. The Kingdom of Bavaria sided with the Austrians.

Perhaps this was an acknowledgement of Bavaria's allegiance by an Austrian maker?

All the above is conjecture on my part, of course, and assumes that the color blue was in response to the affairs of central Europe at the time

Regards.
 

PatH

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i also reached out to three different clock repair places in austria and asked them if they knew of any significance or story behind the blue dial numbers... we'll see if anyone responds. i also sent an email to rick ortenburger, but he hasn't updated his blog since 2019....
Have you checked with any of the Austrian, or possibly German, clock museums?
 

bruce linde

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Maybe it was made for the Blue Meanies:
if so, that would make it even more valuable to me.




All the above is conjecture on my part, of course, and assumes that the color blue was in response to the affairs of central Europe at the time
you said 'this clock' a couple of times.... but i've now seen four vienna regulators with blue numbers. and, yes, i reached out to the museum who put out the book you mentioned... they're re-opening in july, we'll see if they respond.
 

bruce linde

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My apologies, Bruce. Just trying to be helpful.
Hopefully, the museum can provide some meaningful insight.
Regards.

no apologies necessary.... you've been very helpful!

wish i could go back in time and visit whoever made them and ask... :)
 

bruce linde

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richard story at storyclocks.co.uk says that the vienna regulators with blue dial numbers that he's had were all from the 1850s....

david blackman at vienna-regulators.com says he's always heard that the blue dial numbers were only used for a short while.

still waiting/hoping to hear from the vienna museum and peter huttler at uhrmacher.at
 

bruce linde

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just heard from peter huttler, uhr macherei (clock maker), in vienna:

Dear Bruce - As you know, Historismus starts in Austria with the newly built castle in Laxenburg, "Franzensburg" near Vienna in the 1he 1810s. In this time, also blue numbers became fashion. So you can find them on clocks between 1810 and 1900. Traditionally in the Austrian Monarchie, the Bohemians used „cobalt“ blue, also because of their flag colors to show the difference to Austria. (The Hungarians a dark green).
So I think, its a mixture of fashion and maybe bohemian roots. But very sure is, that Emperor Franz Joseph has absolutely no relation to the color of numbers on a dial. Best from Vienna. Peter
 
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leeinv66

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That seems to be a very reasoned response to me.
 

bruce linde

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nothing to report re: blue dial numbers, but the clock is running on 3 lbs 9 oz… which seems pretty good to me for a 30-day, yes?
 
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