Very old grandfather clock circa 1780 ?

[binman]

Put question mark as not quite sure could be earlier, photos attach, my mates clock, won't let me touch it. Nothing on back plate,had a look with mirror.suspension and crutch could do with adjusting, but it's running well.
The photo of the manowar ship, is flying a ensign that has a Union Jack with an additional blue and red flag attached, do not no what this is indicating.On the face of the dial is a name H something Hull, which is a town in England, from the photos I'm hopping to get a more positive date, can you help,thanks.
look like I have forgotten to take photo of case top, which held the last photo of a small scene, unless I go back, will have to work with what I have,

 

[novicetimekeeper]

It's first period painted dial, which is bracketing 1800. The Red squadron of the Royal Navy was Caribbean/North Atlantic fleet ( we didn't get the whole ensign thing resolved until 1864)

 

[binman]

Thank you very much, the clock has a pagoda top, finials all wood no brass.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Thank you very much, the clock has a pagoda top, finials all wood no brass.

I don't know all that much about painted dials, I have read Robert Loomes advice on it so often though that I did that one from memory.

The early part of the 19th century our Navy was pretty busy, Nelson was admiral of the White, so I doubt this is much to do with him. However we were very active on the other side of the Atlantic, and of course went to war with the US again.

Perhaps this was an order for a Navy Captain and this was his ship I imagine clocks were still being made to order still at that point but painted dial clocks were the beginning of increased and more centralised production. Yours has no falseplate which also suggests to me earlier painted dial but I have seen later ones without too.

 

[binman]

Photo attached of the top, definitely pre 1800.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Photo attached of the top, definitely pre 1800.

Not sure anyone can be that definite, if we had more on the name it would help. You could try ultraviolet light.

 

[binman]

The hood pediment of the pagoda style is local to the town of hull, of the examples that I have found all prior to 1800

 

[novicetimekeeper]

The hood pediment of the pagoda style is local to the town of hull, of the examples that I have found all prior to 1800

Were they painted dial too?

 

[jmclaugh]

Circa 1780 is as good an estimate as any. The style of the dial as Nick says is from what Brian Loomes categorises as the first period of painted longcase clocks 1770-1800. The pagoda top case was a popular one and was used during this period but also post 1800.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Circa 1780 is as good an estimate as any. The style of the dial as Nick says is from what Brian Loomes categorises as the first period of painted longcase clocks 1770-1800. The pagoda top case was a popular one and was used during this period but also post 1800.

Yes I did have a look for the cases, the latest I found was about 1825.

 

[DeanT]

In addition to the comments others have made about the early style of this painted dial, the other telling feature is the lack of false plate which usually indicates an early painted dial. 1780's is a pretty good estimate.

Cheers
Dean

 

[novicetimekeeper]

In addition to the comments others have made about the early style of this painted dial, the other telling feature is the lack of false plate which usually indicates an early painted dial. 1780's is a pretty good estimate.

Cheers
Dean

Though I don't collect painted dial I have been a lot more involved with them recently looking for a donor movement for my penny moon.

I've only been looking for dial/movements without falseplate as I needed the movement for an 18th century dial.

I'm not convinced that lack of a false plate is such a good guide to dating an early clock. I've found plenty from what Loomes would call the second and third periods that were without. I would agree that having a false plate means it isn't early, but not having one is less helpful in dating.

The further North you go, indeed the further you go from London in any direction, the more likely you are to find older fashions and styles persist. This clock coming from the early period of painted dials does help by following fashions that became much less distinct once production became more centralised.

It is a shame we don't have a name, though one that springs to mind with this case style is Hudson Fox. He went into partnership in 1802 and was later in Beverly so finding a name to go with the dial could be extremely helpful.(Ultraviolet is highly recomended here)

 

[jmclaugh]

According to Loomes' book White Dial Clocks the presence or lack of a falseplate is not definitive for dating purposes but he does list dates as to when he classifies their use as normal and unusual. They are; With a falseplate - normal from 1780 through to 1840, unusal outside these dates. Without a falseplate - normal from 1770 to 1790 and from 1840 to 1870, unusual outside these dates.

It is worth bearing in mind painted dials were supplied by specialist dialmakers so it may have been possible for a clockmaker to order a dial with or without a falseplate. The suppliers of painted dials subsequently also began to supply movements with dials so in this instance a falseplate would have been redundant.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

According to Loomes' book White Dial Clocks the presence or lack of a falseplate is not definitive for dating purposes but he does list dates as to when he classifies their use as normal and unusual. They are; With a falseplate - normal from 1780 through to 1840, unusal outside these dates. Without a falseplate - normal from 1770 to 1790 and from 1840 to 1870, unusual outside these dates.

It is worth bearing in mind painted dials were supplied by specialist dialmakers so it may have been possible for a clockmaker to order a dial with or without a falseplate. The suppliers of painted dials subsequently also began to supply movements with dials so in this instance a falseplate would have been redundant.

That makes falseplates much more useful in dating than I imagined then, as this dial is first period and without falseplate that suggests 1770-1790 which fits and I have a couple of third period here with me at the moment which are 1840-1870.

I have seen quite a few second period without falsplates too, I didn't buy any as they all had seconds which I didn't want.

 

[shimmystep]

Shame the painting has been rubbed away.
On a technical note. The suspension spring is poorly fitted. They need to in line and fitted without movement. And the crutch loop needs to be perpendicular to the leaders brass block. Judging by the huge amount of dust/dirt on the movements seat board, and the cobwebs, it's well overdue a clean and service!

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Shame the painting has been rubbed away.
On a technical note. The suspension spring is poorly fitted. They need to in line and fitted without movement. And the crutch loop needs to be perpendicular to the leaders brass block. Judging by the huge amount of dust/dirt on the movements seat board, and the cobwebs, it's well overdue a clean and service!

Well spotted, I was too busy looking at dials and cases. That crutch is a bit bent, perhaps somebody was resting the movement on its back when it was being moved somewhere.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I recently bought Brian Loomes book Yorkshire Clockmakers. I've gonme through all thos with a surname beginning with H and based in Hull.

The best option datewise is Thomas Husband who has one painted dial recorded signed Husband Hull. Have you had a closer look at the name under different lights?

Thomas has one date attributed to him for a brass dial 1795.

 

[contractsman]

Put question mark as not quite sure could be earlier, photos attach, my mates clock, won't let me touch it. Nothing on back plate,had a look with mirror.suspension and crutch could do with adjusting, but it's running well.
The photo of the manowar ship, is flying a ensign that has a Union Jack with an additional blue and red flag attached, do not no what this is indicating.On the face of the dial is a name H something Hull, which is a town in England, from the photos I'm hopping to get a more positive date, can you help,thanks.
look like I have forgotten to take photo of case top, which held the last photo of a small scene, unless I go back, will have to work with what I have,

I have a similar clock with a different painted face. Excellent condition and was wondering about the age as well.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Again yours has a style of pre 1800. The signature has been repainted. Thomas Husband is listed as 1760s to 1790s.