Very curious.........

Discussion in 'Horological Books' started by Jon Hanson, Aug 10, 2005.

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  1. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    Chapter 149 member Don Dawes, student and collector, did the horological community a HUGE favor when he published the original version of the great Charles S. Crossman book, A Complete History of Watch and Clockmaking in America (from the Jewelers' Circular and Horological Review from the years 1886-1891) in a beautiful maroon hardbound, gold emprinted version with quality paper for cost to Chapter 149 members and other interested collectors. This book was limited to roughly 200 individually numbered copies and is an important horological book for anyone interested in horology, especially American watches.

    BUT, there seems to be a VERY CURIOUS issue regarding this important publication. It is almost impossible to fathom that a fair amount of time was required to sell a paltry 200 specially numbered copies* ** of a book that one would think every American collector, sans the "how much is it worth level RR collector/investor/speculator", would want for his library.

    Sales of this book begs many unanswered questions: Are there that few parties now interested in the history of American watch companies? Has historical interest, research and study waned? Has collecting books and information become something of the past (even considering new, updated and corrected information on some companies)? Has massive and easy communication, the television, job and family issues, disposable income decreases, inflation, yuppie toys, a proliferation of electronic equipment, sports, lack of supply of goods, time constraints, or speeded up life styles caused a decrease in reading and study and interest in American watch company manufacturing? Have these collectors been replaced with those solely interested in RR watches and profits? Promoted effectively, is there any interest in a second edition?

    People buy picture books (horological and other) of the coffee table variety, price guides and other worthless (or short lived) books for far more money; BUT, a book of great importance and one that should be at the top of every new collector list (or seasoned ones lacking it) interested in horology, goes unnoticed.

    Has collecting many of the series listed in this book decreased (we know association membership roles have decreased dramatically in recent years)? I personally find this issue very, very curious!

    Jon Hanson

    * Understood that there was no advertising budget or promotions; thus, the reasonable (actually cheap) price.

    ** Sold out.
     
  2. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    Jon raises a series of fascinating questions about the state of horological bookpublishing.

    First I agree that the reissue of of Crossman was a wondeful initiative. I happen to own a copy of the Adams Brown edition from the 1960s (bought years ago for 20 dollars), but I was glad to pay the modest price for Dawes superb reedition.

    Why did it not sell like hotcakes? The sad fact is no horological books do (Sorry correction, there was a quasi-horological book by a certain Sobel a few years ago that sold very well). But seriously: the marketplace for horological books, both new and out-of-print is relatively small, virtually the only books which sell over a thousand copies are reference books (listings of makers, priceguides, identification books) and even those take a very long time to get there. Take an essential reference book, like Pritchard, Swiss Timepiece MAkers, published 1997, Ms. Pritchard has had a revised manuscript (with many additions) ready for several years, but even with a global market (there is no competing title in French or German) the first print run of a a few thousand copies is not quite sold yet.

    Given that the total potential market for horological books is relatively small makes it also a very fractured (and intransparent ) market. Mainline booksellers (and publishers) usually will not consider carrying or publishing these low volume specialities, so the majority of all horological books are de-facto self published (or at least subsidised ) by the authors. To keep price down there is no marketing budget and that cuts exposure even further.

    Even for those of us who WANT to buy the newly published horological books finding that they exist is often tough, getting them is even harder.

    A case in point are horological exhibition catalogs. Ofyten these are gems of scholarship, mostly underwritten by some sponsor, published in a fewhundred copies by some local museum, or the "Friends of Boodock COunty Historical Society". The only place they are sold is at the Museum front desk (there often is not even a giftshop). They are not advertised and most people who might be interested never learn they exist. If you find out they may well not speak english, not have e-mail, not take credit cards , not know how much the postage to the USA is, or all of the above.

    How many serious and half-serious collectors (those that have over a dozen mechnical timekeepers) of horological items are there in the world? Maybe 100'000 at the very most. At least 2/3 (but probably 85%) are trade-collectors, dealers at hart, with absolutly no interest in history or scholarship (but they will buy id-guides and priceguides). This leaves 15- 35 000 potential buyers, half of which don't speak English well enough to consider buying a English language book, unless it is a picture (coffee tabel) book. 7 000 to 17 000 left. If a book is of very broad interest it MAY appeal to one in 4 horologists, specialised texts apeal to to one in 20, on average pribably an average subject may apeal to 1 in 10: of the 700 to 1700 potentaial buyers I would guess that the majority never hear about the availability of the title because of the intransparent marketplace, so you are left with 400 to 1000 potential buyers who know about the book. People are busy, they are temporarily short of cash, they never get around to place the order etc: Endresult most horological books sell a few hundred copies in spite of 100'000 horological collectors.

    You can argue with any one of my ratios (they are only wild guesses) but the "nature of the beast" is that unless a horological title is a) of extraordinary interest AND b) of extraordinary quality AND c)is activley and heavely promoted it will not sell thousands of copies.

    Sad, but that is the way it seems to be.

    Fortunat
     
  3. TomT

    TomT Registered User

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    Based on what I've seen and experienced, I would have to say that Fortunat's analysis is very close to accurate if not a bit optimistic.

    Publisher, even those that specalize in books related to horology, are very careful in selection of titles for which they are willing to invest. Unless a title has very broad appeal to the horology community, most publishers are unwilling to invest even when they see the value of the work.

    What is left is some form of "self publishing". Unfortunately, the difficult part is not the writing or the publishing. There are many publishers who will, once you stroke a check, produce a very fine book for you and deliver it where ever you want.

    The real challenge with self-publishing (or traditional publishing for that matter) is promotion and creating awareness across a broad enough group of interested parties. Listing on Amazon and being ranked number 123,231 in a search isn't going to sell books.

    Promoting a title, particularly a relatively specialized title, is a inch-by-inch project that must be pushed forward every day for a long time before result are seen.

    A web site promoting the book helps give people a way to get more information. Preview copies to sellers of horologolical books is pretty much a must. Correspondence with other NAWCC chapters helps. Contacting the NAWCC gift shop helps. Contacting instructors who might use the text in their classes is useful. Searching the web for related sites or groups is also useful.

    Like I said, promotion is an ongoing, every-day kind of thing and there is usually no one to do it but the author.

    Unless a long term, aggressive effort is made to create awareness, then sales are likely to remain very low for a very long time.

    On the positive side, there "are" people out there that will want a quality work once they find out about it. The final piece of work in creating a book seems to be to make it known to the target audience.

    Regards,
     
  4. Steve Patton

    Steve Patton Registered User
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    David,
    So true! I can't imagine doing without my books.
    Nothing better than an illustrated and detailed explanation
    open in front of me. The message board is the ultimate
    source for those; Huh? Oh..Oh..now what? moments
    that crop up from time to time. Nothing can beat the
    books coupled with the wisdom and experience found
    on the board. (well, most of the time)

    Steve
     
  5. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    I agree with Fortunat, but I think the situation is far worse than he suggests.

    My experience with printing books is that it must be viewed as a work of charity which will cost more than it will return. My translation of the Jacques David reports, which I thought would find a ready market with American collectors, has sold about 50 copies and I have about 250 copies in boxes. My second printed book "How to make a verge watch" has done sightly better, but realising the problem of selling anything I only had 80 copies printed. At the moment I am over $2000 out of pocket and even if I sell every copy I will still loose about $1000.

    I self published both because mainline book publishers are simply not interested in anything that isn't 80% or so pretty pictures. And I give away everything else as free downloads because I know I will not be able to sell even one copy of them.

    It is easy to print a book but it is VERY HARD to sell it. Not only are there VERY FEW potential buyers, but people like me have no way of advertising to make potential buyers aware. The only hope is by "word of mouth" spreading of information and that is clearly ineffectual.

    I have a number of other projects in hand but some may never see the light of day because there is simply no point printing them.
     
  6. TomT

    TomT Registered User

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    Richard,

    I agree that creating a horological book must be more a labor of love than a money making scheme. Having said that, however, there is a market for well written books on subjects helpful to collectors, restorers and repairers.

    The challenge for the independent publisher is making potential buyers aware of your book. When you wrote the book (or books) you had to put on your "author's" hat in addition to your horological experts hat. Without deep pockets, you have to now take off your authors hat and put on your marketing hat.

    The first thing that you must have is a web site to showcase your books and related information. Once it's up and running, you are only beginning. Now you have to get your site linked to as many related sites as possible.

    There are actually hundreds of horological web sites. Some are commercial, some educational, some general interest. Most will gladly add your site to their links page if you do the same for them. Over time, this can lead to many, many links back to your site. This drives traffic, but has the added benefit of pushing you up in the search engine rankings. It's a lot of work finding and emailing sites to set up recriprical links, but it's a part of the awareness building process that never ends.

    There are a number of books written on self-publishing, e-publishing and the related marketing activities. Many of them are very comprehensive regarding all the steps you must take to get things going.

    It is disturbing to think that you have useful information to pass along, but are becoming discouraged. It would be most unfortunate if our horological skills are gradually lost because we cannot document and pass them along.

    I hope you decide to continue to pursue your publishing goals.

    Regards,
     
  7. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Member, NAWCC Board of Directors
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    Richard:

    I agree with TomT, but you can't stop with a website. Even the most prolific and famous authors must hit the bricks to promote their books. They routinely do "Book Signings" at local bookstores upon release of a new edition.

    The only difference in the case of horological books is that the signings would be done at regionals and nationals, rather than local bookstores.

    Writing "condensed" versions as articles in NAWCC and other horological publications with reference to your full work at the end is another route to get the word out. Or, you might discuss with the NAWCC the cost of printing "reviews" of your publications on the back of the insert sheet of, or an insert with, the Bulletin.

    Very few individuals will buy a reference book site unseen. Just look at the carping about the $20 to $30.00 per book cost of beginner books as discussed on the various postings on this board. Often, one must peruse a volume before buying.

    It is not easy, even for the big boys, but it must be done.

    Just some random thoughts from a non-professional.

    RobertG
     
  8. TomT

    TomT Registered User

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    Robert is of course correct. You actually never finish the promotional phase. Displays at regionals will generate interest, sales and most importantly, awareness by word of mouth.

    Also keep in mind that there are quite a few horological book sellers who would usually add your book to their offerings if the pricing is correct. The NAWCC gift shop is also a good place to display and sell a good book. Donating a copy to the NAWCC library is also a way to make more people aware of your book (for a long time).

    In the end, you do pretty much all the things that a traditional publisher does (promote, find outlets and promote some more).

    It is a lot of work but very rewarding when you see how much some people appreciate what you have provided to them....

    Regards,
     
  9. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    I don’t mean to sound negative, but I should comment on my position and what I have already done.

    Robert G wrote “... They routinely do "Book Signings" at local bookstores upon release of a new edition. The only difference in the case of horological books is that the signings would be done at regionals and nationals, rather than local bookstores.” and Tom T repeated this.

    Unfortunately I live in Tasmania, about 10,000 miles from USA, and the nearest NAWCC chapter is about $300 away. I simply can’t promote this way.

    “Writing "condensed" versions as articles in NAWCC and other horological publications with reference to your full work at the end is another route to get the word out.”

    I have published one such article which, as far as I can tell, has been studiously ignored.

    Tom T then added “Also keep in mind that there are quite a few horological book sellers who would usually add your book to their offerings if the pricing is correct.”

    My books are stocked by Rita Shenton, Jill Hadfield and Antoine Simonin. As far as I know there is no specialist horological book seller in America.

    “The NAWCC gift shop is also a good place to display and sell a good book.”

    I have approached the Gift Shop 2 or 3 times and have never received a response. I eventually suggested stocking my books on a commission basis but there was no reply.

    “Donating a copy to the NAWCC library is also a way to make more people aware of your book (for a long time).”

    Two copies of both printed books were donated immediately after printing. I also donated copies to the Antiquarian Horological Society in England. I have heard nothing from the AHS; they didn’t even bother to thank me.

    “... you might discuss with the NAWCC the cost of printing "reviews" of your publications on the back of the insert sheet of, or an insert with, the Bulletin.”

    An interesting idea. When I donated copies I said “for review and/or the library”. I have no idea how book reviews in the Bulletin are created; I presume they are unsolicited offerings and that the Bulletin editor doesn’t seek reviews. Anyway, the problem is how to get someone to write a positive “great book” review unless I do it myself and submit it under a pseudonym.

    Robert G also wrote “Often, one must peruse a volume before buying.”

    True, but it is only possible if bookshops stock the book. Both of my books are specialist books, not glossy photo albums, and there is no way a general book shop would consider stocking them. The horological sellers are primarily mail-order businesses and people rarely visit them and actually handle books before buying.

    Finally Robert G added “...Just look at the carping about the $20 to $30.00 per book cost of beginner books”.

    I presume most potential buyers have no idea of costs. My book on American watch making cost about US$5.75 per copy to print (ignoring the costs of computer software, time, travel, etc). This doesn’t sound much but ... I had to give away about 20 copies to libraries, booksellers, NAWCC and legal deposits. The cost, including postage, means I have to add about a $2 to the price of the rest to cover it. Now because I live in Tasmania and buyers have to pay for postage, the absolute minimum I can charge for a thin, black-and-white soft-cover book including post is about US$17. My retail price is US$24, which is a paltry margin compared to most books.

    Some self-publishers print on demand using photcopying and ring binding; Ehrhardt is a good example. But either the quality is poor or it is very expensive. For example, the abolute minumum cost for me to print my bibliography, ring bind it and post it is about US$100 and none of you would be willing to pay that! Which is why I give it away; if I didn’t no-one would bother with it (and precious few seem to have bothered anyway).

    Finally, Tom T wrote “The first thing that you must have is a web site to showcase your books and related information. Once it's up and running, you are only beginning. Now you have to get your site linked to as many related sites as possible.”

    I have a web site (http://www.watkinsr.id.au). This is rather dull because although I know I should “put on your marketing hat” my personality and abilities are definitely not in the area of self promotion and I have no skills in that area.

    I quite frankly don’t do anything about links. I did get my site added to the NAWCC members links, but that is a huge, unwieldy list and I very much doubt if it is used. I have also discovered that my pdf downloads are on another site. This surprised me as the site owner didn’t bother to tell me! Of course I don’t mind but it prevented the sort of mutual promotion that Tom suggests. The NAWCC on-line Mart is probably of little use because I ge the impression that it is rarely used and rarely visited. This message board is very good, but I connot promote my books here, except the free ones. I did contemplate “ThePurists”, but that site seems to be restricted to “status” watches and my work would be utterly irrelevant to its visitors. Fortunat’s site http://www.horology.com has not been updated since 2000 and much of the information is even older (and out-of-date).
     
  10. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Member, NAWCC Board of Directors
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    Richard:

    Your reply did not sound negative. It was right on the mark. I can fully understand the difficulties you face.

    When I wrote my response, I did not make the effort to note where you live. I assumed you lived in the U.S. (a rather nationalistically arrogant assumption on my part. I apologize.) I will endeavor to be more observant in the future. Therefore, my comments were aimed at those of us here in the U.S. My comment about perusing the books before purchase was directed to showing them at the national and regionals, rather than bookstores.

    As for the cost of your books, they are amazingly low cost! I had assumed that such specialized publications would be in the $75 to $100 range.

    Your publications are, I believe, all watch specific. Perhaps there is someone from one of the watch boards who is a regular table holder at the regionals or nationals who would be willing to display some of your publications for sale. This could hold true in other countries besides the U.S., for whatever horological shows they might have.

    RobertG
     
  11. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Robert, "As for the cost of your books, they are amazingly low cost!"

    Well, you had better buy several copies!

    Seriously, The American book (David reports) is only 82 pages A4, although it is very information dense. The other, "How to make a verge watch" I have only sold through booksellers.

    Years ago Ebay was a good way to buy and sell books. Now, sadly, it is nearly all brand name boxes and leaflets (presumably available for you to smarten up your fake Rolex or whatever). I recently offered a copy of one book for sale and there were no bidders. That is partly my fault; I should have simply relisted ad infinitum as many sellers do, hoping to eventually get a bite.
     
  12. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    For whatever it's worth I consider Richard Watkins a "Saint" in the (small) world of horological publishers. All of his books - see (http://www.watkinsr.id.au) - (most are translations of french text unaccessible elesewhere for the "English only" speaking watch enthusiasts) are serious and important publications with a heavy intellectual content. No fluff whatsoever.

    But his opus-magnus is his Bibliography of the Watch, an unparalleled effort of cataloging and classifying all watch books he could identify.

    I think he is -sadly- correct in his assumption that there is virtually NO market for this kind of scholarly research aid. But to me the book is invaluable. Not only did I print out a copy (the work is 1016 pages, i.e.2 volumes) for myself and have it bound in 3/4 leather with marbled boards for my own library, but I printed out two additional copies for the NAWCC library and had them bound on my cost so that NAWCC members may consult this resource there AND borrow it bymail if they want to.

    We need more horologist like Richard Watkins who put in the effort to create serious pieces of horological scholarship (even if the pretty, but often meaningless, picture books on clocks sell much better)

    Fortunat MUELLER-Maerki
     
  13. Fortunat Mueller-Maerki

    Fortunat Mueller-Maerki National Library Chair
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    Just remembered that I did a Bookreview a while back for Richrds Bibliography for the NAWCC Bulletin when it was first published and posted it to this list.(I dont remember if it has appeared in ythe Bulletin yet) Here it is again:

    Bookreview by Fortunat F. Mueller-Maerki

    Mechanical Watches, An Annotated Bibliography of Publications since 1800, by Richard Watkins. Published in December 2004, in Kingston (Tasmania, Australia) by the author. Two Volumes, 1017 pages. ISBN 0-9581369-5-5.
    Not published on paper. Available only as a free download from the authors’ website (http://www.watkinsr.id.au), approx. 2.5Meg of data in zipped format, which expands into three puff files, and can be viewed and printed with the free Adobe Reader software. Lending copy also available at the Library in Columbia.
    For the serious scholar or researcher in any subject, including horology, bibliographies are an indispensable tool; they tell you which publications exist on your area of interest. Horology recently has not been blessed by an abundance of bibliographic effort. Up to the book under review, there were only two reasonably broad bibliographies available:
    1.) Clocks & Watches, An Historical Bibliography, by G.H. Baillie. Volume I appeared in 1951 (414 pages, NAG Press, London, with a reprint in 1978 by Movements in Time, Toronto). It covers horological publications from the year 1344 to 1800. Volume 2 (to include 1801 to 1900) existed only in draft form when the author died, the late Charles Aked worked on the draft in the 1980s, but died before it was ready; it is unlikely to ever get published. With its historic focus the existing volume is of limited use to most of today’s’ horologists.
    2.) Bibliographie Generale de la Mesure du Temps, by Tardy (the pen name for Henri Langellé) was published in 1947 (390 pages, Tardy, Paris; 2nd edition 1980). It is in French, and although it covers the non-french horological literature as well it is relatively franco-centric, and not very current either.
    There are a few specialized, more narrowly focused horological bibliographies out there, such as Campos, Bibliographia Relojera Espangola (1975, for Spanish publications) and Kahlert, Bibliographie zur Schwarzwalduhr (1984, 2 Volumes, limited to the bibliography of the black forest clock), as well as some specialized listings on sundials, electrical horology etc.
    Creating a good bibliography is a time-consuming, tedious and thankless task. Australian watch enthusiast Richard Watkins resides on the island of Tasmania giving him little chance to interact face to face with fellow collectors, so he took to buying (or borrowing) and reading most books he could about mechanical watches, building over decades a substantial personal library on the subject of mechanical watches. Through trial and error he discovered that not all books were worth buying or reading, and out of that frustration grew the desire to spare fellow horologists the dead-ends, and the resolve to create a comprehensive bibliographic record on the subject he loves.
    In the last 10 years he painstakingly recorded all the details about all publications he could find on mechanical watches into a database covering 2223 items. Fortunately he did not limit himself to the traditional bibliographic headings, but also recorded his own personal –and sometimes idiosyncratic- summaries and impressions on those books which he has seen himself (more than half of the items). He developed a massive index of subjects (26’000 entries) and keywords (7’000 entries), as well as over 13’000 data-points on the prices asked for these books.
    Organizing the database into a user-friendly printable form resulted in a massive work of over 1000 pages of 8½ by 11 inches, of rather small type. Economic realities dictated the path toward electronic publishing. The cost of printing and binding the work, plus shipping costs from Australia would result in a prohibitive price given the very limited global demand for such a publication. He could never break even on paper copies, so he decided to give the fruits of his labor away for free through the internet to his fellow horological enthusiasts.
    As long as you have a reasonably fast internet connection it is very easy to download the 2.5Meg data-files to your home computer. If you have basic computer skills you will have no problems unzipping the files, and viewing the resulting pdf-documents with the Adobe reader software. Printing your own paper copy will take a few ink-refills and some time unless you have a high speed printer (you may prefer to take the files to Kinko’s and print them two-sided on one of their high speed printers. I myself am crazy about bibliographies so I spent some dollars to have the results bound into hardcover books, but a cheap three-ring binder will obviously do the job as well.
    Getting the books printed will be a bit of an effort but the result is worth it. Two volumes, listing 2’000 plus horological books on mechanical watches (as well as some related publications, all published 1800 to 2004) including content summaries, accompanied by separate indices by full title (2740 entries), Title Key-word (6860 entries), Author (3240 entries), Date of publication (2233 entries) and Subject (26,640 entries). The subject index is a comprehensive index to the books based on their contents. Finally, the price guide has 13,500 entries giving sale prices in recent years.
    I consider this new book a vital element of any comprehensive horological research library and the author deserves the heartfelt thank you of horological scholars around the world. In a work of this magnitude there are always minor errors, but it would be petty to dwell on those. And yes, of course I disagree with the authors’ characterizations and summaries of some of the books, but then reading opinions that may differ from mine is also the most stimulating part or leafing through this text.
    Fortunat F. Mueller-Maerki, Sussex NJ
    February 28, 2004
     
  14. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    FWIW, I've written and self-published a number of watch books/booklets over the past 10 years. My "best seller" is a detailed work on the Aurora Watch Co. which had a first edition of 150 copies that took about 5 years to sell. The second edition of 40-50 copies is nearly sold out. A reference work of RR watch inspector names sold about 100 copies of a first edition and perhaps 50 copies of the 2nd edition. My booklet on the Columbus Watch Co. has sold perhaps 75 copies. A similar number of booklets on the US Waltham Co. were also sold. None of these works are grand publications, but I do feel that they are informative for such things as histories of the companies in question, info on their product lines, estimates of their production, etc.

    Anyway, these are some data on the sales of a few of my watch books/booklets. It's hardly worth the effort to dig out and organize the info, write the work, edit it, format it, and publish it, but I've enjoyed putting them together nonetheless. And every once in a great while someone buys a book of mine (without asking for a price discount) and thanks me for the effort involved in putting it together.
     
  15. Wes

    Wes Registered User

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    As NAWCC member's we should promote these publications from NAWCC members. Why not put these in the Emart? People do look at the emart, and it is free. Sure, you are only hitting the NAWCC members who have internet access and who know of the Emart, but it is another tool for marketing. If people aren't aware of the product, they obviously cannot buy it.
    Richard, I also noticed American and Swiss Watchmaking in 1876 has the cost of the book in AUD. I don't know what the conversion is to USD or EUR, but you may want to consider listing the prices in USD and even EUR.
    Also, to promote the web site, you might want to consider exchanging links with other web sites. I would be happy to be one of the first. As previously posted, this increases traffic and theoretically increases your Google rank.
     
  16. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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    Wes,

    Is my website linked on your web page?
     
  17. Wes

    Wes Registered User

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    Yes!
    (We are both members of the WH Web Ring that Sam set up. Do you have it installed on American Horologe?)


    (Edited to update 149's all new message board link on my signature)
     
  18. Jon Hanson

    Jon Hanson Registered User
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  19. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
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    Hello All,

    Many members appear to have a very low scholarship interest and awareness - I suspect many do not even read the Bulletin.

    Tran Duy Ly's books appear to sell, because people want to know quickly what it is and what it might sell for. It is disappointing the interest is so commercial focus.

    Andy Dementer recently published a book on Chelsea Clock Co. and I believe that he has done reasonably well selling it. I asked him last year and he said the magic word "I have broken even on it and he probably he sold more since then."

    Self publishing is getting better with the continued growth of digital age and now you can almost request them print books on demand. Less and less the need to publish 1000-2000 books and have them sit for 10 years!



    Andy Dervan
     

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