Help Using the Timegrapher App on My ipad

[HUDD]

Hi All Its been a long time ......

Today I downloaded the Timegrapher App on my ipad. Seems to work ok but I have a query ....

App shows two of my 18s Walthams ( 1883 and 1892 models ) as losing around 12 sec/day when I know in reality they are both gaining around 12 sec/day ? Is this to do with the lift angle ? It is set at 52 deg, but is this a correct setting for my 18s pocket watches ? Any suggestions would be most appreciated/

Hudd

 

[gmorse]

Hi Hudd,

...Is this to do with the lift angle ? It is set at 52 deg, but is this a correct setting for my 18s pocket watches ? Any suggestions would be most appreciated

The software uses the lift angle just to calculate the balance amplitude, nothing else, but there are several threads here about discovering it if you're interested. Pocket watches typically have lift angles smaller than the default 52˚, mostly around the mid-forties. Amplitude per se doesn't affect the rate, unless it's far less than the ideal, (around 270˚), so your problem may be with some other parameters. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this particular app, (being a Windows and Android user, and using the Delph Electronics package eTimer on my laptop).

Regards,

Graham

 

[John Runciman]

timing machines versus the real world is a problem. the problem with a timing machine is it shows you what the watches doing at the instant the watch was on the machine. That may or may not reflect what the watch does on your wrist or in your pocket or someplace else when timed over 24 hours. Typically watch companies like Rolex or Omega will follow a timing procedure. They do multiposition timekeeping when the watches fully wound up and 24 hours later an average the numbers together. Then the definition of fully wound up is any time you time a watch you wind it up you let it run about 15 to 30 minutes as opposed to when it's tightly wound up.

 

[HUDD]

Hi Hudd,



The software uses the lift angle just to calculate the balance amplitude, nothing else, but there are several threads here about discovering it if you're interested. Pocket watches typically have lift angles smaller than the default 52˚, mostly around the mid-forties. Amplitude per se doesn't affect the rate, unless it's far less than the ideal, (around 270˚), so your problem may be with some other parameters. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this particular app, (being a Windows and Android user, and using the Delph Electronics package eTimer on my laptop).

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham

I didn’t realise that. I’ll try putting in different lift angles to see how the results vary ? Seems odd that my 18s Illinois watch was shown as losing time when in fact it gains when compared with the computer clock ? I have to say I’m new to the Timegrapher and my research led me to a YouTube video showing how to set the amplitude to 180 deg and adjust the Timegrapher to match which then indicates the lift angle. Not easy because of the speed of the action. I’ll give it another go shortly.
Thanks for your help.

Hudd

 

[HUDD]

timing machines versus the real world is a problem. the problem with a timing machine is it shows you what the watches doing at the instant the watch was on the machine. That may or may not reflect what the watch does on your wrist or in your pocket or someplace else when timed over 24 hours. Typically watch companies like Rolex or Omega will follow a timing procedure. They do multiposition timekeeping when the watches fully wound up and 24 hours later an average the numbers together. Then the definition of fully wound up is any time you time a watch you wind it up you let it run about 15 to 30 minutes as opposed to when it's tightly wound up.

Hi John
I’ll persevere with the Timegrapher app but I understand what you are saying. I’ll try timing fully wound and then 24 hrs later and average the two. I’ll do this via the Timegrapher and by the computer clock and compare. Just as I type it occurs to me that I may be confusing rate as shown on the Timegrapher, assuming it to be advising real time gain or loss ?

Hudd

 

[gmorse]

Hi Hudd,

Not easy because of the speed of the action.

Try taking a short video of the balance and then replaying it in slow motion. The 180˚ method is made easier if you use a spot of Tippex or similar on the balance rim.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Al J]

timing machines versus the real world is a problem. the problem with a timing machine is it shows you what the watches doing at the instant the watch was on the machine. That may or may not reflect what the watch does on your wrist or in your pocket or someplace else when timed over 24 hours. Typically watch companies like Rolex or Omega will follow a timing procedure. They do multiposition timekeeping when the watches fully wound up and 24 hours later an average the numbers together. Then the definition of fully wound up is any time you time a watch you wind it up you let it run about 15 to 30 minutes as opposed to when it's tightly wound up.

Just FYI - most timing specs call for 0H (fully wound) timing checks to be done between 30 and 90 minutes after winding.

Cheers, Al

 

[HUDD]

Hi Hudd,



Try taking a short video of the balance and then replaying it in slow motion. The 180˚ method is made easier if you use a spot of Tippex or similar on the balance rim.

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham

I tried a tiny spot of nail varnish but never thought to take a video and play back slow motion ! Why didn’t I think of that ? Many thanks for the tip.

Hudd

 

[HUDD]

Just FYI - most timing specs call for 0H (fully wound) timing checks to be done between 30 and 90 minutes after winding.

Cheers, Al

Thanks Al I’ll take that into account.

Mike

 

[John Runciman]

the classic YouTube video for figuring out lift angle found at the link below. You will note that the mark on the balance wheel is with a almost florescent red colored dot. I find if you try to use standard felt pens like black really really hard to see. Personally what I use is a yellow highlighting pen that lights up under UV.

The 180˚ method is made easier if you use a spot of Tippex or similar on the balance rim

I had to Google I wasn't familiar with Tippex. So I think a white.would be a good choice anything other than a standard felt pen which just isn't going to be visible.

out of curiosity are you carrying your pocket watche in your pocket? Or they staying in a stationary position for 24 hours? that's the other minor problem with timing machines versus real world is. In real-world watches tend to not stay in stagnant positions they tend to move around. Casually a wristwatch because conceivably it could be in multiple positions positional errors may actually cancel out. But a pocket watch that could either be dial up at night and crown up in your pocket can have vastly different timing. This is why people get really obsessed with timing watches get fancy timing machines that run multiposition timekeeping. Although typically are going to find those in watch repair shops is a really really expensive. So ideally with a pocket watch you really still want to time it in at least two positions the pendant up and dial up. Ideally more would be nice to look for positional errors.

Then your timing app does it show anything other than a numeric display?

 

[HUDD]

Hi John

I tried a dot of white nail varnish but still struggled to see so I’ve ordered some livid fluorescent green nail varnish to see if that’s better. I tried to do a slowmo video with my iPad but it only allows you to record in slomo . Play back is a problem because the recording is in the form of a series of images you have to manually slide a finger across. Very erratic. I’ll try it with my camera and my old windows 7computer.
I do time my watches dial up and stem up because I use them as everyday carry watches. I can’t wear a wrist watch so I carry in a trouser pocket attached to a belt loop with an old silver chain. The video you posted is the one I originally viewed. If I could get a video at that speed I would be more than happy !
The timing app I’m getting to grips with is the Timegrapher from Apple apps. Cost me £12.99, so not very expensive. It shows a numeric display and a graph which is a series of diagonal parallel dots which I presume indicate how well the watch is performing. Works well except for very quiet watches when using the built in microphone.

Hudd

 

[gmorse]

Hi Hudd,

The rows of dots are an emulation of what you'd see in an old paper tape timer, and if there are two distinct rows, the separation indicates that the escapement is out of beat, the wider they are the larger the error. If the lines are vertical the rate is spot on, if they slope up from left to right it's gaining and if they slope down it's losing, all as compared with the selected beat rate. The ideal is a single vertical line.

If you're having trouble with slow motion you don't necessarily need it, the point of the 180˚ test is that at that amplitude, the dots will appear to coincide at each end of the oscillation, so if they appear as one dot, your amplitude must be 180˚. All you need is a decent amount of light.

Regards,

Graham

 

[HUDD]

Hi Hudd,

The rows of dots are an emulation of what you'd see in an old paper tape timer, and if there are two distinct rows, the separation indicates that the escapement is out of beat, the wider they are the larger the error. If the lines are vertical the rate is spot on, if they slope up from left to right it's gaining and if they slope down it's losing, all as compared with the selected beat rate. The ideal is a single vertical line.

If you're having trouble with slow motion you don't necessarily need it, the point of the 180˚ test is that at that amplitude, the dots will appear to coincide at each end of the oscillation, so if they appear as one dot, your amplitude must be 180˚. All you need is a decent amount of light.

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham

I didn’t know what the dots represented so thank you for that. Always happy to learn.

I did eventually get to take a slow motion video with my iPad. Fault was mine for not following proper instructions, but I realise you are spot on with the dots appearing to coincide when amplitude is 180 deg. Somewhere in the back of my mind I remember bits of my A level physics ? Including Hookes Law ! Amazing what gets forgotten as we get older.

thanks again for all your help. I shall try to put my watches in first and the sort out accurate lift angles.

Hudd