Urgos Center Arbor Problem

Tony Ambruso

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I am in need of some advice from those who have removed the center arbor from an Urgos UW66035 movement. This is a discontinued movement that seems to have some strange qualities for my experience.

I am trying to remove the center arbor which needs rebushing on both the front and rear plates. Interestingly, it is the only bushing work the clock requires, and it needs it badly. The bushing on the front plate is so bad that it stops the clock. A little downward pressure on the tip of the arbor is enough to restart the clock. Imagine that.

I have included a picture that may be good enough to help you visualize my question. The cannon pinion SEEMS to be adhered to the arbor by a STEEL SLEEVE that has been pressed :???:onto the arbor over the cannon pinion. These are my perceptions. I cannot say that I have ever encountered this arrangement before. Notice, in the attached picture, that the arbor is variably wider at the bottom near the cannon pinion. I hope you can see the "little line" that exists where the arbor begins to get wider near the bottom. It appears to me that there is a sleeve that has been pressed on. I also hope you can see the bulge at the very bottom of that "sleeve." I have attempted to quantify that bulge for you by listing the range of diamters as they change from the start of the "sleeve" to its bottom.

If any of what I have said is true, then how do I successfully get the cannon pinion free of the arbor? :confused:

I have thought of cutting the side of the "sleeve," but there is only a .005" lip to get a blade or sharp instrument on to begin stripping the sleeve off of the arbor to free the cannon pinion. :eek:

I hope you can see the slight diameter changes in the picture where I have labeled the dimensions. They are very subtle.

I should have started out by saying that I have gotten absolutely nowhere trying to lift that cannon pinion. And yes, I did use a little heat, also. But to no avail; that cannon pinion and star cam do not want to budge. That is what has lead me to wonder if there is a pressed-on sleeve holding it all together.
 

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Willie X

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Tony,

The star cam / gear comes off in the usual manner. They are very tight. The taper is so that when you do break it loose, it won't be 'tight' all the way off.

Not much use in proceeding until, and unless, you can get a new center shaft. BFI may still have them.

I'm surprissed that you didn't find any other wear! This is probably the worst mvt ever made by Urgos.

Good luck, Willie X
 

Tony Ambruso

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Tony,

Not much use in proceeding until, and unless, you can get a new center shaft. BFI may still have them.
Willie, thanks for the reply. What you say makes sense, and that is what I orginally thought. However, the lifting was so unsuccessful that I thought there might be something else going on there.

Why did you say what I quoted from your reply? Why would I need a new center arbor?
 

eskmill

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The diameter "bulge" may not be a steel sleeve but simply a step in the arbor diameter made during production of the arbor.

I don't think you can "lift" the pinion and star cam off. I believe one must force the arbor off the pinion/star cam.

A "pusher" tool has to be fabricated to clear the threaded end of the arbor and seat on the square. The pusher, fitted into an arbor press or chucked in a heavy drill press can force the arbor off the pinion. Of course the set-up has to be done carefully with a good eye to avoid damage to the arbor.

Replacing the pinion/star cam is done the same way but with different tooling.

JMO, Les
 

Stormy

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Tony
I would be interested in hearing what LaBounty has to say about this also.

Stormy
 

Willie X

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Tony,

The shaft is small to start with and usually a good bit of metal is missing from wear. I'd much rather fork out 6 or 8 bucks for a new part rather than spending a lot of time trying to work with the old one.

There are several people on this list who have overhaulled the UW66s. Probably be good to wait a few days and let others chime in before proceeding.

I now repace all mvts that have worn out center shafts but I also have high respect for those who take the time to overhaul them too.

Good luck, Willie X
 

LaBounty

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I've removed these before but the process will usually damage the arbor in some way.

Les' suggested method works well and causes minimal damage. The steel is so soft however, that pressing or driving the arbor out of the pinion will cause the step on the arbor to mushroom no matter how closely you match the diameter of the step with the punch. But, the edge can be easily dressed off so the damage is minor.

I've also had good luck prying the pinion off using two flat head screw drivers of the same size. Work the screw drivers under the star cam on opposite sides of the pinion. Twist the screw drivers in opposite directions so the force against the star cam is uniform. It may take successively larger screw drivers to completely remove the pinion and star cam and there may be slight damage to the plate as a result.

As others have mentioned, it is too bad this movement isn't available since it is easier to replace rather than repair them. You should examine all of the lower train pivots for pitting and repivot if any show signs. If the front bearing of the center shaft has worn that much I suspect the plating is gone and the center shaft will need to have a hard steel sleeve installed over the front pivot. Otherwise, the bearing will almost certainly wear out again in a few months.

Good luck with it and let us know how it turns out!
 

itbme1987

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This may sound dumb, but isnt there like a list of movements that supercede (hope thats right) older models? if that could work even if you have to remount the movement a little to fit the case in a way you might be future proofing it so if someday another issue should come about a few years down the road a new movement can be fit in easilly should that be needed, course if it were up to me (which its not) i would try to keep fixing it for as much as i could before it needed a new one...just wondering what others think
 

harold bain

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Ryan, it probably could be replaced, but likely a new dial, pendulum and weights would be required (just the case reused).
Mark Butterworth is the person to contact re: what movements can be directly replaced.
 

WT Clocks

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As ridiculous as it sounds: I went to sears and bought 2 tack pullers. The handles look like a screwdriver. Using them oposite each other with equal force (a lot) will remove it with no or little damage. Lots of success with this.
 

Tony Ambruso

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Thanks for all the replies and good advice to all who responded. It is much appreciated.

I have tried all my usual methods for removing that arbor, to no avail.

I had resigned myself to making a stake and using a press to work on this problem, but a friend made a suggestion to me that caused me to look even harder at the pinion/arbor fit. The fit is so seemless and tight I was becoming concerned that there was, indeed, a sleeve that needed to be stripped off. But I'll take Les's and LaBounty's suggestions. And from earlier indications, I'm sure there will be a little damage that I hope to reverse, after using a custom stake to drive the arbor from the pinion. I wanted to get opinions before I went ahead and runined the clock by misunderstanding how the gears were adhered to the arbor.

I'll not be doing any more prying and lifting as it has been completely unsuccessful in this case. The pinion and cam do not have enough space under them to get a strong enough piece of steel under them to do any appreciable lifting.

There is a replacement movement for this discontinued model. It is UW66044. I want to try to save the movement before I decide to replace it. I can probably remake the arbor more cheaply than purchasing a whole new movement.

As Dave suggested, the plating may be worn from the arbor, which would necessitate replacement or repair.

Also, there is only a simple brass bushing supporting this arbor, unlike some other Urgos movements. I may decide to use a bronze bushing.

Harold, I used Mark Butterworth's Urgos movement replacement list to determine the appropriate replacement for the one I have.

After speaking with BFI, there are no replacement parts directly available for this Urgos movement and no one is sure which parts are interchangeable with the original movement.

But I think I have enough information to proceed for good or ill with this situation. As long as I know the pinion is pressed on, there's only two ways to get it off: pry it off or push the arbor through.

Once again, thanks for all the information from all the respondents.
 

GustavBecker99

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My friends, I have, and am, in the process of the complete overhaul of the awful UW66035 movement. I have read all, (or most of), the comments concerning this problematic unit, and must wholeheartedly agree with all of you. It would be better to simply take this offending movement, and throw it up in the air as far as you can, then... let it fall back down onto the pavement; THEN ask it how much time did it take to accomplish that endeavour. Joking aside, I have had a nightmarish time with this clockworks, but have persevered with persistance. I have it testing on the wall as we speak, and it works; only the rate of time according to the stock pendulum drop it still fast, with the rating nut held by the last threads. It is what I call a 'stubby-type' pendulum; (short). I will keep in contact with you all, and post pictures and experience reguarding this shistenuhr. From dismantleing the 'Auto-beat' verge mechanism, to catastrophic occurences concerning the sub-plate which sandwiches the second-hand cam and the escapement wheel; and the ever frustrating pallet adjustment on this works.

Thank you & Good Day!:eek:
 

rdstorer

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Call me dumb, stupid, or whatever, but I have never had a problem getting the lifting cam and piniion off. I do it frequently, have never damaged an arbor, cam or a pinion. RDS
 

Willie X

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Tony,

I'm pretty sure that this movement is now back in production but the centershafts are now larger, same or very similar to Hermle. The adaptation might not be practical, or even doable, but a larger centershaft would definately be a plus for the UW66. Maybe someone has, or will, look into this.

Willie X
 

Dave T

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Right here guys is exactly what I'm facing on my UW06101. (No longer available)
I need to replace two front plate bushings, but the center shaft is in the way.

I've considered ways to get at these bushings without removing the center wheel, but the only tool I have is the Bergeon machine. However, I don't even think a hand held reamer would be slim enough to get at them. Not sure however, I don't have one - yet.
The other thing I considered was to knock out the original bushings and replace, but doubt I could get the centers properly aligned.
The other alternative is to remove the center wheel, which according to this information is a risky idea.

This is an old thread, and I'm wondering if there's any new information or ideas on how to proceed.
 

shutterbug

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You might as well remove it. A little heat will make it easier to get the lift pinion off.
 

Dave T

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That's where I'm headed now. By this time it's make it or break it!
 

Dave T

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Well, I don't think I broke it. Here's my approach. Made a couple of makeshift pry bars to get it started. Clamped them down to maintain pressure, Then I could use alternately larger screwdrivers to pop it loose.
Didn't take much once you get it started. Did not heat it! center wheel removal.jpg
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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With canon pinions we heat the pinion for about 5-10 soon s with a mini torch. Short enough time that the center shaft does not heat up as well. The pinion then pops right off
 
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Dave T

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I'll definitely keep that in mind next time around. I spent nearly a day figuring this out and actually getting it done!
 

Dave T

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I see how you've clamped the brass sleeve tight on the arbor. But not sure what the next step is.
 

Dave T

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Now that I have the star cam off I'm wondering how to re-install it for proper tightness. I didn't heat it for removal.
 

Dave T

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Thanks Mark, If I just sit it on the arbor it appears it will start getting tight about 4 or 5 mm above where it needs to sit. I'm wondering if I should just drive it on without the loctite first.
 

Uhralt

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Thanks Mark, If I just sit it on the arbor it appears it will start getting tight about 4 or 5 mm above where it needs to sit. I'm wondering if I should just drive it on without the loctite first.
That would work too but next time it will be as difficult to remove as it was this time.

Uhralt
 

Dave T

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That would work too but next time it will be as difficult to remove as it was this time.

Uhralt
Now I'm confused. Are you saying it would not be as tight if I use loctite?
 

Uhralt

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Now I'm confused. Are you saying it would not be as tight if I use loctite?
My statement was assuming that you wouldn't drive it on that hard when you use the Loctite. A little finger pressure would suffice. Then it would easier come off with a little heat. When you drive it on all the way, there is no need for the Loctite.

Uhralt
 
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Dave T

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Well, I managed to knock the bottom bushing nearly clear out. But not all the way, I managed to reset it.
And the cam is back on but not as far as it was originally, but definitely tight and the corresponding gear runs smoothly against it.
Now we'll see how it goes. This clock is one Bear!
Nothing replaces experience, and I'm sure getting that on this one!
 

TEACLOCKS

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I see how you've clamped the brass sleeve tight on the arbor. But not sure what the next step is.
Support on the backside of the plate, then hammer the brass sleeve down, The arbor will go through the star.
A little at a time. Keep the sleeve close to the star, then reposition all the way through.
 
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Dave T

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Is it preferred to put the arbor between both plates before re seating the star cam, or just the front plate only?
I used both plates.
 
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