Urgos 03038 9 Tube

[disciple_dan]

I'm just getting started on this Urgos 9 tube movement. I'm disassembling it now with lots of notes and pictures. It looks to be a little complicated. I'm sure it will be a great challenge.
The one thing I'm not certain about is the second-hand gear on the front end of the EW. It's a very small gear and I'm not sure of the best way to handle it. It must come off so I can properly clean the bearing hole. shall I just carefully lift it off?
Other than that I'll finish the teardown. Thanks, Danny

 

[MARK A. BUTTERWORTH]

You need either a gear puller or a set of prybars.

 

[disciple_dan]

You need either a gear puller or a set of prybars.

Thanks, Mark. I have a small gear puller. It came right off. I thought it would but wanted to hear it from experience. Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

Ok. I do have Conover's Chime Clock Repair book that has the Urgos 9 Tube covered. Glancing at it, I didn't see any info about the main wheels. What are some things to look for when servicing them? Especially the time wheel. They don't look too easily dismantled. Thanks, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

What are some things to look for when servicing these drive wheels? Do I need to disassemble them and clean the insides? I'm ready to start assembling now. Thanks, Danny

Have a Happy Day, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

How many times has it been nesassary to for you guys to bush some of these chime wheels? The ones that are driving the bevel gear pinions are looking a little sloppy but the others are not too bad looking.
Are there points in the music system that need to be checked? Thanks again, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

? I'm not getting very many NAWCC emails of late. Is it me or are they having trouble again? I really need some advice on this Urgos. I'm ready to start putting the music system back on. I think it might need a bushing or 2 but I wanted someone's experience.
Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

Yes, re-bush where necessary. That 18# weight does a number on the bearing surfaces. Be sure to check the pin drum on the driven end and the winding arbors (F and B). The cables usually need replacement. Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

Willie X to the rescue. Thanks. The movement is back together and I've got the strike and chime set close to Conover's instruction in his Chime clock repair manual. The stop pins are slightly off of the marks he suggests but in a place to give good warning travel to set up train release. I'm ready to install the pin barrel and then the chime drive mechanism.
I'm going to set it all on there so I can be certain of the direction of rotation and check for wear. I keep hearing there is not much tolerance in this setup.
The cables look good. No kinks or fraying. I'm not sure about stretching. How would one know if that was a problem?
How far do you go cleaning the pin barrel? Should I take this completely apart and put it in the US? It's pretty nasty looking now compared to the nicely cleaned movement.
Thanks for the help. Danny

 

[Willie X]

Are your cables steel or brass? Just check those cables very closely from one end to the other. Last one I did had some flaw in all three cables but it was older than the one you have. Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

How far do you go cleaning the pin barrel? Should I take this completely apart and put it in the US? It's pretty nasty looking now compared to the nicely cleaned movement.
Thanks for the help. Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

How far do you go cleaning the pin barrel? Should I take this completely apart and put it in the US? It's pretty nasty looking now compared to the nicely cleaned movement.
Thanks for the help. Danny

Have a Happy Day, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

Are your cables steel or brass? Just check those cables very closely from one end to the other. Last one I did had some flaw in all three cables but it was older than the one you have. Willie X

Yeah, the cables look fine. I see no reason to replace them. What about cleaning that pin barrel assembly? I want to take it apart and put it in the US. I will keep all parts in order to make sure they go back the same. Is that a bad idea

 

[Allan Wolff]

Conover's Herschede Tubular Repair manual states that every part except the chime barrel can be submerged in clock cleaning solution for a short time. You don't want cleaning solution or water to get inside the barrel and causing corrosion. I brush the tube with a nylon bristle brush that is dampened with cleaning solution to remove dirt and old grease from the barrel and pivots. Follow by a brushing with clean water as a rinse (or rinse solution if you are using waterless cleaner).

 

[disciple_dan]

Conover's Herschede Tubular Repair manual states that every part except the chime barrel can be submerged in clock cleaning solution for a short time. You don't want cleaning solution or water to get inside the barrel and causing corrosion. I brush the tube with a nylon bristle brush that is dampened with cleaning solution to remove dirt and old grease from the barrel and pivots. Follow by a brushing with clean water as a rinse (or rinse solution if you are using waterless cleaner)

Thank you, Allan.

 

[disciple_dan]

I have the trains completely assembled and I need to set up the winding stops before I put the chime barrel and transmission on.
Steve Conover's book is little help for most of the assembly. He doesn't even mention the cables, mainwheels, or stops. I found an instruction posted by Mark Butterworth that explained how to line up the marks. I did what I thought was the correct procedure and this is the result.
In this pic, all trains are wound up to a complete stop. To set this up, I had let the time cable all the way out and then wound it one complete wrap of the drum and lined up the stop works timing marks. Then I wound it fully and this is where the stops engaged. With the time and strike cables wound to a close amount of cable out (likened to the time side) I set the stops to match the time stops. I think the strike and chime only made one revolution before stopping.

This pic is of the stops engaged on the strike and chime sides and TT still running. I'm not sure how many revolutions but it was only a few hours.

This pic shows the time and the chime stops fully wound up to stop. I think I may need to move the chime freewheel gear stop to go below the winding gear stop as is the time train. Does anyone see this? Please give me your thoughts.

 

[disciple_dan]

I think that worked.
Moving right along. I'm setting up the chime barrel now. I've searched the I-net and this is the best thread I have seen. I think this one will lead me there. Danny

Setup up chime drum.

Hello This picture is of an urgos 9 tube (I believe). It's a 3 tune (West min, St mich etc.). Can anybody help me out with the correct pins for the starting position? [attachment=img=quetin004.jpg] Thanks Stewart

mb.nawcc.org

 

[disciple_dan]

This pic shows the time and the chime stops fully wound up to stop. I think I may need to move the chime freewheel gear stop to go below the winding gear stop as is the time train. Does anyone see this? Please give me your thoughts.

No, I was mistaken. The strike and chime trains have come to their stops again. I'm walking away for a while. Help!!!

 

[Willie X]

I just got in another one of these babies today. 5 of the 6 main-wheel arbor's pivot holes are 'wore slap out'. Bottom was knocked out but I don't think the main-wheel mesh was lost, hope not anyway. The customer was talking about a bad cable but I haven't seen that yet ...
Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

Willie X, You said something about having to extend the height of your test stand so you could let your cables all the way out. Was that so you could set the stop works at the bottom? I'm using a short pendulum to test mine because the original one won't work on my stand. Should I just take the stops off and let the cables out and set them there? It worked for the time train.
Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

You can set them at the top.

I made that tall stand because that older model didn't have any stop works and did have double clicks on all main wheels. I couldn't even see them much less release both at the same time.

The only way I could get the cable off was to let it run down completely, hence the tall stand.

Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

I'm getting close. I just hope that it is going to perform well when I get it all set up.
I'm cleaning the pulleys now and wonder if I should use a little grease as opposed to oil on these axles. If grease, which. I've been using Mobius 8300 on my levers and hammers. These pulley parts get more stress. Should I use heavier grease or just oil? Thanks, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

Did anyone ever ask you to go get them a tool and when you got back with it they had already completed the job? Sorry. I do that a lot. I'll try to stop asking for answers and then just do it the way I think it should be and not wait on your input. When you answer a question you are using your valuable time and I shouldn't waste it. I apologize.
Here is the finished movement. It's testing and so far so good. It did stall twice in the 2nd quarter when I was manipulating the hand. It went into warning but did not chime. No pins were touching the hammer tails. Test, Test, Test. Thanks for the help, Danny

 

[Willie X]

I use thick oil, like 20W-50 Mobil 1, or Keystone medium mainspring lube It probably would be fine with any regular clock oil to light grease ... These old Urgos pulleys are just about bulletproof.

 

[disciple_dan]

These old Urgos pulleys are just about bulletproof.

Yeah, I was impressed with the pulley design. That's a large axle and it would hold up for a while even if the nuts came off.
I just used a thin coat of the Red + Tackey. Not even visible. It's Lithium based. I used that on the bevel gears too. Do you think that's OK?
What about the movement? Is that a good speed? It seems to be consistent from start to finish.
Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

The chiming is a little slow at the start.

As long as the grease won't dry out, it will be fine.

WillieX

 

[disciple_dan]

The chiming is a little slow at the start.

Thanks, Willie X. What would I check for that slow start? Could I need to adjust that drum to get as much of a running start as possible before the hammer tail picks up a pin?

 

[Willie X]

Yes siree. Willie

 

[shutterbug]

Always adjust with a longer tune. Westminster is shorter, and adjustments there will more than likely have to be redone. It also takes less power to run WM

 

[disciple_dan]

I know you couldn't hear it but the video is of Whittington. I have learned to always use that and the rest should be good. Thanks, Danny
Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[wow]

Is this how you set them Dan?
Richard T’s explanation.

 

[disciple_dan]

Is this how you set them Dan?
Richard T’s explanation.

I set the time train as Mark Butterworth had instructed by letting the cable all the way down and making one full warp. I set the timing marks to the center so that they were together. I wound it up until it stopped. For the chime and strike trains, I wound them up and left the same amount of cable out as the time and set the marks to match the time train stops but I had to move them a couple of teeth until I got them to work. They are about 2/3 down now so I don't know for sure that they will go to the bottom. I'll let you know.

 

[disciple_dan]

So, this Urgos 03038 has been on the test stand since Wednesday and is doing fine. I just have one thought. I have been using an 84mm pendulum for the testing because I think the original is 116mm and it won't fit on my 40" stand. Is there any reason that would cause it to run differently from the original pendulum? I can't imagine it would do anything but run fast. I'm not worried about the timekeeping for this test. I'll put my TimeTrac on it when I get it installed.
Any thoughts on that? Thanks, Danny

 

[shutterbug]

It should be fine. The shorter pendulum will be lighter, but not enough to make a huge difference in how well it runs.

 

[Willie X]

Was the original problem associated with the time train? If yes, I would test it again with the original pendulum. No such thing as to much testing ... for me anyway. Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

I'm pretty sure it was running time but would not chime and the strike was dragging on very slowly. It's testing pretty well so far. If it continues I'm taking it home on Dec. 5th. Thanks for all the great help, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

I had a very disturbing setback this week when installed this movement. On my test stand, it ran fine for 2 weeks and never missed a beat as far as I know. I watched it pretty close. When I got it installed, tubes and all, it would not chime. The strike and time work fine but the chime would not even move. Even when I put force on the weight it wouldn't start. I checked all around the inside of the case to see if something might be touching somewhere, No. I took it back out on-site and checked for a fouled cable or anything that might be causing this failure. I put it back in and it did not work.
I've got it back on the test stand at the shop and it will not chime. The time and strike work. I'm not sure how to approach the matter. Do I start with the transmission and chime barrel or from the great wheel up? Any ideas?
Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

I always go for the cable drum first.

Is your cable guard attached with two screws, or floating on the winding arbor.
If the later, it should wiggle easily with finger pressure. If not, you have to much cable on the drum, or the cable is crossed. These metal guides are great but will not tolerate anything out of normal. They will make strange noises, if anything is wrong.

I worked on an older one, back in the summer and it was a bear, double inaccessible clicks and no stop works! And, I'm working on one now that is probably like the one you have.

Both of these clocks had non removable cable drums.

If you need any info, I will have this one for about a month. Willie

 

[disciple_dan]

Thanks, Willie X. I'll try letting the cable out and rewinding. I think I can take the weight off and loosen the chime drive gear on the back and let the cable out without taking anything apart.
My cable guards are attached with 2 screws. Are the drums removable without disassembly? I can't remember.
Thanks again, Danny

 

[Willie X]

If they have a 'C' clip on the back, they will slip right out. No clip, you get to do an almost full disassembly to get them out!

Your plan seems to be a good one.

How long is that cable? Most seem to be 105" but the one I have now has 110" cables. On this one, the pulley has to stop about 5 1/2" down from the bottom of the plate. So, I guess they made variations to suit the buyers specs? Willie

 

[disciple_dan]

Taking another look.

 

[disciple_dan]

You can watch the fly. It should start to spread out at about the 2 second point and stay out. It should go full out at the little breaks between the 8 note sets.

If that right drum bushing is worn the chimes will take much more power for two reasons. One, the bevel gears will be out of alignment. Two, the drum is pushed upward and this will raise the pins, making the hammer lifts more than what they should be, especially on the right side and this is the starting point for most of the chime sets.

These clocks can be a real PITA!

Willie X




I found this thread and did the fan test.



That looks pretty good.

It seems to be slowing a bit at the end and doesn't seem to expand fully at the breaks between the sets. I've never used the butter bearings, don't like the idea of those humongous holes.

Willie X




Yeah, Butter bearings would be a last resort.
I was hoping for a little faster spin on the train. I could have a snug bushing in there somewhere Would an end shake test be the way to find that?
Thanks for posting that test. That's the stuff that only practical experience will teach. Thanks, Wille X

Have a Happy Day, Danny



I usually just watch the fly and the hammers closely. If there is any slow down, make note, and back off on that hammer spring screw 1/4 turn. The book says not to do that but they probably had no idea about how a 14 arbor train was going to be workin in 40 years ...

As already mentioned, max out that run up to the first hammer lift. If the thing stumbles at the start, it's going to give you trouble.

Anything with the fly spreading nicely and a good even chime cadence will probably work out OK. On yours, I might back off a bit on those later hammer springs. The fly is closing slightly at about the half way point. I usually make my assessments on the 8 descending notes but check the others too.

Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

• This is such good information. Thanks for the great help.
  So, Willie X. You are talking about these hammer screws, right? Not the ropes that draw the hammers back.
  
  I think I read somewhere that you can get into a world of trouble with those. So, do you think I should turn them in small increments and see how it affects the run?
  Thanks, Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

So, Willie X. Backing off on the hammer spring screws will lessen the resistance on the hammer spring and the train doesn't have to work quite as hard to draw the hammers back, is that the result here?
What does that do to the sound? Will I need to adjust the distance of the hammers to the tubes?
When I was removing the movement from the seat board, I put a yardstick across the tube rack and measured the distance to the hammer tips at 9/16". Upon reassembly, I set each hammer at 9/16" from the tube rack. Will I most likely have to make adjustments to the hammers after I have made adjustments to the springs?
Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

I use a stick too. I could hear the clatter in one of your videos.

I think you can safely figure that the hammer strings will always need to be adjusted to some degree. Also, check that the movement is plumb, (or square with the case) often the seat board, or the structure beneath, has sagged and in need of some shims. This usually won't change the hammer adjustment much but it will lessen the tension on any support brackets that often attach the chime tube frame to the clock case. And also, this will make the dial plate flush against the front trim board. Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

support brackets that often attach the chime tube frame to the clock case.

This one doesn't attach to the case inside. It only sits on the seat board. I will check it though to see if it's sagging anywhere.
Those spring screws are extremely tight. I couldn't budge a couple of them with my fingers. I think I might turn all of them 1/8" because when I took the stick out that the hammers were touching at rest, it seemed to start just a bit slower but the got up to speed and runs fine. What do you think?
Here's a video of that run.

 

[disciple_dan]

Willie X, what do you use to turn those screws with? It's kind of a tight spot and they are very stiff. Thanks, Danny

 

[Willie X]

You can run a long screwdriver (over the movement) for some, the others I use a tiny pair of Channel-lock pliers.

The strip of wood I use is 1/4" square. I figure to adjust all the strings after installing.

Willie X

 

[disciple_dan]

I figure to adjust all the strings after installing.

Yeah, I measured them before disassembly thinking if I got them close I wouldn't have far to go.
Hopefully, I will get it home next week. Thanks for all of the comments and help. Danny

 

[disciple_dan]

I back off all of the hammer spring tensioners about a 1/4 turn. This is how it is working now. Thanks for watching. Please tell me what you think. Danny