Up-Down power reserve indicator

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Steve Barnes, Jan 12, 2020.

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  1. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    I was looking at the Up-Down power reserve dial of my grandfather's watch the other day, and wondering how it works and what it might indicate when the watch is fully wound down.

    From searches in this forum and elsewhere, I had the impression that the indicator was geared from the barrel or elsewhere, and so was expecting it to be in sync with the time elapsed.

    I ran tests on two days (see pics attached) and the results were as follows: after 24 hours in both tests, the indicator showed around 28.5 hours, but in the first test the watch stopped after just over 39 hours and the indicator showed around 43.5 hours, whereas in the second test it stopped after 41 hours and showed around 45.5 hours.

    So about 4.5 hours more in 24 hours and still 4.5 hours more when it had stopped.

    I am now flummoxed. Is it not geared directly? If not, what is it showing?

    This is of no great importance and probably wouldn't have been for my grandfather, who no doubt wound up his watch each day before he went to work. And if not, the Up-Down dial would have suggested when to do so.

    The watch is a non-fusée lever escapement made in the late 1880s.

    Regards

    UDPR test 1.jpg

    UDPR test 2.jpg
     
  2. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    If I understand this, your GF's watch evidently has a Winding Indicator (WI) rather than a Power Reserve Indicator (PRI).

    A PRI is geared to depict the extent of total winding force remaining in the mainspring barrel. It shows zero when the watch is fully unwound & the running hours remaining at full or partial wind-up.

    However the WI is geared to depicting the time elapsed since the last winding. The WI is calculated to be used over less than the entire winding period of the watch. Such a watch should never be fully wound except on Day 1 (the indicator usually shows less than 0 at full wind). On Day 2 & subsequently it should be wound only until the WI indicator shows zero. So when the indicator reads 15 or whatever the wearer knows that 15 hours have elapsed since the last winding; ideally the owner would religiously wind it every 24 hours, bringing the indicator back to 0. Anyways the amount of power remaining isn't really relevant for the purposes of the WI.

    While giving a visual cue as to when the watch should be wound, the underlying horological idea of the WI is for the watch's mainspring force to be used in its middling portion where the greatest consistency in its power output resides. The more consistent the amount of power released from the mainspring, the more consistent the force transmitted to & from the escapement such that the balance wheel gets whacked with a more constant force so that the amplitude of its motion would be consistent. This helps with timekeeping where hairsprings are less than isochronous. I refer to the WI device as a visual stop works, if you know what I mean.
     
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  3. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Thank you viclip, that is very, very helpful. I didn't know there was a difference between an Up-Down winding indicator and a power reserve indicator. Now I do, that makes much more sense. And I had noticed that when fully wound it was slightly before zero, as can be seen on the pics, but had thought that it was just slightly out of alignment. I won't now wind it past the zero if I wear it for several days. I will test it again in the next few days with the indicator starting on zero.

    If the WI is geared to depicting time elapsed, should it then indicate 24 after 24 hours? Am I correct in thinking that?
     
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  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi viclip,

    Thanks, that's a very clear explanation of the difference, especially the 'visual stop works'.

    It's worth noting that implementing either device on a going barrel is rather more complex than on a fusee, which simply needs a pinion on the bottom of the fusee arbor.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  5. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Glad to have been of some help.

    Yes if you re-wind the watch on what I've called Day 2 only just to where the WI hand hits the 0 exactly, then 24 hours later by that watch, the WI hand should be at 24. Of course on an old watch wear & tear & resistance due to dirty gummy oil may result in some variance but it should be pretty close.

    I hope you'll advise of the results ...
     
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  6. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    I certainly will, viclip. Thank you.
     
  7. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    What an excellent post ....thank you Steven for bringing this subject to light. I am confused ....as I had lumped both types of indicators into the UP/Down category. completely in the dark, of the separation of functions between WI and PRI ....I’m thinking that it might be like the gas gauge on a 1974 pick up truck ....where half tank on the gauge does not indicate accurately that 2/3 of the tank has been used ? If I understand correctly a WI is only designed to assist with, when to wind for the best timekeeping? And the PRI is designed to state the remaining power in the mainspring at any given state of wind ?

    Assuming a 30 hour indicating dial on two movements, one with WI the second with PRI .....and both with a 30 hour main spring. Would not the WI watch indicate 15 hours of elapsed time and then 15 hours of wind available before running out of mainspring power ? Was not Steven saying that he was experiencing more run time than his 30 hour subdial could indicate .....or am I assuming a 30 hour main spring/run time on Stevan’s watch and that Stefan’s watch Has a mainspring capabilitY of 40 hours and the WI feature .....was not designed or intended to be accurate for full mainspring depletion consideration.

    Does that mean that the Power reserve indicator is more complex and accurate and therefor a more desirable feature than the wind indicator feature ?

    How does one discover which type of UP/Down indicator is on a movement that is cased ? Wind the movement all the way ...and note the actual elapsed hours compared to the dials elapsed hours ?

    why are some of these indicators set up to indicate with a clockwise sweep of the hand ....and others set up with counter clockwise sweep of indication ?? .....I have Now to throw a monkey wrench into equation ....I have a Nardin torpedo boat lever,chronometer with an up/down dial. However the up/down dial spins while the hand stays stationary!! just saying !! ....I call out up/Down as I do not know the proper designation of PRI or WI on this watch ...

    Graham Viclip please step in and sort me out ....thanks again Steven ...John
     
  8. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    You have the right idea(s).

    The easiest way to distinguish between a WI & a PRI is that when fully wound the WI will show < 0 whereas the PRI will show >0 such as 40 hours or whatever length of time the watch will reliably run.

    The WI if wound to 0 (being less than a full wind, so as to maintain timekeeping within the more consistent middling portion of the mainspring's power curve), will then display how many hours since it was last so wound. Ideally the owner will wind it back to 0 every 24 hours i.e. at the same time every day.

    The PRI if fully wound will max out at say 40 or more hours, & will gradually indicate smaller values indicating how much of the mainspring power reserve remains, ultimately zeroing out.

    So they essentially go in opposite directions in terms of values displayed.
     
  9. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    Thank you Viclip . On a 30 hour power reserve indication watch when fully wound ....the indicator will display UP ....however the next number(s) indicated while the spring is unwinding sequentially would be 24 18 12 6 And when the PRI hand is at 6 ....there would be 6 hours of wind/power left in the spring ? I have never seen such a dial .....pretty sure my friend dyslexia is on hand again as I’m am lost.

    the largest number on the subdial for a PRI watch will always indicate a full wind ....working its way to zero as the Mainspring unwinds from a full wind to zero wind

    I’m thinking I have only seen Zero as a fully wound watch with up/Down dial ....the numbers growing from zero at full wound to 30 when unwound ?
     
  10. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    I've only seen PRI devices on wristwatches but presumably they were included on some pocket watches. The big American watch companies such as Waltham & Elgin used the WI on certain of their railroad grade watches both to visibly remind the owner to wind the watch, & to enhance timekeeping.

    yup. The mainspring will run for the duration of the time scale shown on the PRI device (although in practice it's not always exact thus the watch may still run for a while at 0 to give the owner a chance to re-wind before it stops; some dials include a red zone or similar warning).

    Actually on the WI watch the mainspring is partially wound at 0 & also partially wound at the highest depicted value, the idea being to take advantage of the middling portion of the mainspring's power curve for the sake of the hairspring's isochronicity. Put another way, the mainspring will run longer than indicated by the WI scale.


    Just remember that on a properly zeroed WI watch, the value indicated measures elapsed time (how long it's been since the watch was wound), whereas on a PRI watch, the value indicates a measure of future time (how long until the mainspring unwinds).
     
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  11. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    Now i understand ....thank you so much for taking the time to explain in detail ...John
     
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  12. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Incidentally when acquiring a WI watch you're actually getting 2 watches for the price of one.

    The WI device also works as a chronograph for roughly timing events such as a 2-hour parking limit. Just wind the watch to the 0 position upon leaving the vehicle & keep an eye on the WI hand as it displays time elapsed since that winding. Of course for that purpose one would want a WI subdial showing at least hourly increments, such as on various Walthams & Elgins etc.
     
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  13. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Fusee version, spring detent, about 1883.

    Good read.

    Keith R...

    100_3604 (800x600).jpg CHRONO (800x663).jpg CHRONO1 (800x625).jpg
     
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  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    #14 Tom McIntyre, Jan 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
    The wind indicator that Charles DeLong invented for the McIntyre Watch is a little different from the standard variety.

    It includes a wind up indicator that uses a planetary gear on the winding wheel to engage it in the winding direction.

    The winding transmission includes a friction clutch with a Bellville spring that allows the indicator assembly to be geared to both the main wheel and the winding drive at the same time.

    The under dial works is a gear that engages the end of the clutch assembly pinion that has an uncut section that is the projection of the angle between the up and down or 0 and 30 positions on the dial. If the hand is placed on the arbor of that wheel correctly, when the watch is wound, it will stop moving when the hand points at 0 but there is still a bit of winding available on the mainspring.

    As soon as you release the winding crown, the planetary gear is impelled by the recoil click to move the winding gear out of engagement from the winding stack. When this happens, the stack is now driven by the main wheel. It will move toward the 30 hr position and will get there in 30 hours exactly. The uncut sector will stop the hand from going further in the down direction but the main wheel will continue to turn the slip clutch.

    I have been measuring the 4 examples that I have that function correctly. They will actually run about 42 hours on a winding.

    If you let the mechanism run all the way down, the excess spring will be restored to the unwound state. When you wind it up again you will have about 12 hours of reserve remaining after the hand reaches 0. If you want the adjust the main spring "isochronal" point you can continue winding for about 3/4 turn after 0 is reached.

    I believe the run time from that position is about 36 hours. I am not sure that the actual improvement in the force curve is much for a modern mainspring. Since each experiment takes a day to run, I have not really tried to do this analytically.

    The other interesting related phenomenon is cultural. The best watch repair people all know about using the placement of the wind indicator to encourage the user to wind the watch properly. Because of that when they have overhauled the watch and are putting on the indicator hand they forget about the uncut sector on the indicator wheel and put the hand where it "belongs." Because there is an uncut sector, the indicator will never display properly.

    Because of the handy clutch, you can either place the hand exactly on the 30 when the watch is fully run down, or you may put it exactly on the 0 when it is wound up.

    When DeLong filed his patent application, he actually laid out the train to make the indicator concentric with the seconds hand. That watch is a full plate 18 size and the indicator dial is marked for 0 to 36. The 3 16 size examples I have been studying all work as described above.

    There are images of the parts of the last of these watches that were made in this article Bread Upon the Waters. You can skip all the sentimental parts and just look at the indicator gear stack and the pictures that show where it resides.
     
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  15. Philip Poniz

    Philip Poniz Moderator
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    Some find the terms interchangeable. This comes from Journal Suisse d’horlogerie.

    JSH 1959 (90).jpg
     
  16. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    I couldn't get your attachment to enlarge but in any event, I'm aware of the confusion.

    That confusion is exacerbated by the indiscriminate use of UP/DOWN which I find confusing, even though I understand the distinction between Winding Indicator & Power Reserve Indicator.

    Then there's the German AB/AUF, neither of which words I understand, thereby adding to the confusion.
     
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  17. tick talk

    tick talk Registered User

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    AUF/AB = UP DOWN. HAUT/BAS in French.

    data card front copy.jpg
     
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  18. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    I worked in southern Belgium, France, England, and Japan..............trust me, just stick with England!!

    Keith R...

    cornc (800x800).jpg UD (587x800).jpg
     
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  20. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Well, viclip, still a mystery (see new pic).

    This time when fully wound, the indicator was dead on zero. Previously, it had been ever so slightly past (i.e. <0). But I waited till 'Day 2' to rewind and again it was dead on zero when fully wound.

    But it made no difference - about 28.5 hours indicated elapsed in 24 hours, and again about the same 4.5 hours difference when unwound after c39.5 hours.

    I had wondered (a wild guess really) whether the watch had been repaired in the distant past and the gearing for the Up-Down function had been changed slightly in error (extra teeth in a wheel, say) but that doesn't gel with the same 4.5 hours difference when fully unwound.

    The only other, possibly unusual, feature about the watch is its 'Improved Safety Wheel' and I'm grateful to John Matthews for the following thread.

    Transposed maker's initials on open face false fusee

    This is exactly my grandfather's watch, including the maker of the case and movement, I.J.T. Newsome. Newsome's advertisement and the info on the Morcom patent of March 3, 1886, made my day, John. Thank you very much.

    Could this safety wheel arrangement be in any way associated with the WI gearing? I'm assuming still that the WI is geared directly from somewhere. If so, how can it then be out of sync with the time?

    Viclip, I was struck by your expression 'a properly zeroed WI watch'. Could that be a clue?

    The watch was fully repaired and serviced recently by a reputable UK company and keeps excellent time.


    UD test 3.jpg
     
  21. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    "Up/Down Indicator" is a shorter and clearer expression of "Power Reserve Indicator", and as far as I can see was preponderant in 19th century English watches. It shows simply whether a watch spring is wound up or let down. My guess is that the term "Power Reserve Indicator" was introduced for the sake of its sound of importance sometime in the 20th century?
     
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  22. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Properly zeroed means that the hand was applied in the correct position after the watch was fully assembled. That positioning depends on the understanding of the repair person of what the customer expects to see.

    Unless the wind indication mechanism has a slip clutch of some kind, the hand will always track the winding mechanism. Some watches incorporate a mechanism to "loosen" the relationship between the spring state and the indicator hand. A watch with that feature will show the hand stopping its motion while the spring may still be wound. I do not know how many watches have that feature, but it is easy to spot. The McIntyre watches with DeLong's patent wind indicator have it and I just noticed my Waltham 1892 vanguard with the small sector wind indicator has it.
     
  23. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Ah, now that rings a bell, Tom. Before it was repaired properly recently it had been with a 'repairer' who had put it back together in such a way that the indicator did not point to zero when wound. I can't now remember what it pointed to but it was a long way from zero. For the recent repair, I explained this and asked that it points to zero when fully wound, believing (ignorantly, as it turns out) that it should. If I hadn't mentioned this, maybe it would have been 'zeroed' differently.

    But would this explain the difference between actual time elapsed and the indicated WI time elapsed?

    When you say 'the hand will always track the winding mechanism' does that mean it's not geared off the barrel, or another part of the going train?

    The WI hand does not stop during winding and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have any other refinements such as a 'slip clutch', as my grandfather's family were not wealthy (to put it mildly).

    As you can imagine, I'm reluctant to tinker with it as it runs perfectly at the moment, except for an errant Up-Down indicator, which I can live with.
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Watchmakers are trained to put the hand on the dial the equivalent of about 3 hrs above the 0 or 30 mark with the spring tightly wound. They then tell the owner to wind the watch at the same time every day and stop when the indicator hand reaches the fully wound position, If the owner does that, the watch will operate with a bit of the spring reserve still there when wound up and a bit at the other end still there when run for 24 hours.

    The earlier remark about the isochronous range of the mainspring was talking about that central region of the spring. Modern springs are pretty linear in the power released but if you wind it up really tight there is a pretty sharp drop in power when the spring is tightly coiled.

    The advantage of watches with the slip version of the wind indicator is that the owner can adjust the operating range by simply letting the watch run all the way down and then wind it up until the hand has stopped moving and then give the crown another half turn. That will generally result in the most linear power release.
     
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  25. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    American pocket watches of which I'm familiar having the WI device, can be wound beyond the 0 & they will keep running beyond the max value on the WI scale.

    I picked up somewhere that the barrel on these should be partially wound up by the repairer prior to installation of the WI gearing. This ensures that the WI catches the middling portion of the mainspring. There's some guideline kicking about for how much to parially wind the mainspring.

    I'm sceptical however that even if the WI gearing was installed with the mainspring completely unwound, that that would result in the WI showing some 4.5 hours more than the watch itself. I can see that a WI could run slow if one or more gear teeth were worn or broken, or if some applying spring was weak or broken. But I'm at a loss to see why a WI would show so much faster than the watch.

    Steve's suggestion that the gearing may have been inappropriately tinkered with is a viable explanation.

    Perhaps the dial was replaced at some point, having the wrong WI scale for the WI mechanism? Waltham had WI watches with indicator dials having values of 0-40 hours initially, which were subsequently changed to having values of 0-24 hours being a more useful scale (Waltham WI dials may or may not have been interchangeable). Who knows in the case of the manufacturer of Steve's watch but do consider however that it the 30 on Steve's WI scale was a 24 instead then ...

    Barring some further or better explanation, at this point the best advice I can provide is for Steve to post a shot of the actual WI mechanism nestled inside the movement, someone here may notice that something is awry.
     
  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    The hand is always put on after the watch is assembled. The dial forces it to work that way. A gear train is just a gear train and has no mechanisms other than wheels and pinions to scale rotary motion.

    All that is needed to have variation in the winding display is to vary the length of the mainspring. That happens if you install a spring that is thinner than the one it replaces (or thicker). Thinner is longer and thicker is shorter.
     
  27. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Ah so you're suggesting that the mainspring was changed & replaced with one incompatible with the wI mechanism? I'd be surprised if Steve's watch had its original mainspring at this point in time, repairer's often replace them as a matter of course as consummables.

    So the solution would be to install a shorter mainspring or else have the existing one shortened?
     
  28. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I think the correct solution is to use the winding mechanism to wind the watch to the up position and then go just a little further.

    If the watch does not reach the down position when it is fully run down, then the spring may need attention, or the placement of the indicator hand on its arbor may need to be adjusted.

    If one removes the dial on one of these and sees a wheel with some of the teeth uncut (to block the rotation with the pinion) then there must be a slip clutch somewhere in the system. Typically a pinion will be spring loaded against a flat disk on the arbor so that whatever is driving the arbor can continue to move while the pinion is stationary. The entire indicator train never experiences load, so the slip mechanism can be pretty simple.
     
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  29. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Thanks for that Tom.

    I understand that a longer mainspring will result in a longer full wind before the WI hand bottoms out somewhere below zero.

    But suppose that 2 otherwise identical WI watches are distinguished only by one of them having a longer mainspring. If both of them are wound to the 0 point on the WI scale then exactly 24 hours later I would expect that both of their WI hands would read 24. The watch with the longer mainspring would run longer before stopping however, running for 24 hours is running for 24 hours.

    I continue to struggle with the behavior of Steve's watch where it runs for 24 hours but the WI hand says that it has run for 28.5 hours.
     
  30. Tom McIntyre

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    The indicator hand in that watch moves in the counter clockwise direction from 0 to 30. The dial is labeled up above the 0 and down above the 30.

    He has not shown any pictures of it outside of that range. If he is combining the observations of the hands of the watch and the movement of the wind indicator, we may be misunderstanding what he said.

    If the wind indicator moves from 0 to 30 while the watch runs for significantly more or less time than that, then the indicator is either badly designed or the dial painter got the wrong instructions. I think it is unlikely that a wheel and pinion were changed and all the center to center distances remained correct with the new ratio. However that would also lead to a scale error between the time keeping and the wind indicator.

    The length of time a watch runs on each successive winding is another matter and introduces a lot more variables. Did the temperature change? Did he eat a better breakfast and wind it a little tighter? Was the watch lying in exactly the same position each time?

    I think that is a pretty old keywind watch so there might be other sources of interference. It has a going barrel, not a fusee, there may be other sources of differences depending on whether or not the watch has a reversing pinion.
     
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  31. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Perhaps I didn't explain in enough detail the timing of the three tests.

    A full revolution of the WI dial is 42 hours, the distance between 30 and 0 (in counter-clockwise direction) being exactly the same as between 0 and 12, i.e. 12 hours. The dial is, in effect, divided into seven six-minute sectors.

    None of the pics show the indicator passing between 30 and 0 at the top of the dial as I only took pictures at 24 hours and when the watch was fully unwound, i.e.stopped.

    I ruled out the 'gearing change' idea as the difference between WI elapsed time and actual time passed should have been, proportionately (in tests 1 and 3), about 7.5 hours when unwound if it was 4.5 hours after 24.

    Re 'reversing pinion'. It has an 'Improved Safety Wheel'. Please see pics in John Matthews's thread (link above), which show this function, and particularly the Morcom patent image. My watch is identical.

    I quote from the Morcom patent:

    'Going trains.—Relates to mechanism for preventing damage to the movement in watches and clocks in the event of the mainspring breaking. The spring barrel A has teeth arranged round the central part of its periphery, which teeth gear into the wheel B. On the same arbor as the wheel B, the wheel G is loosely mounted. The latter wheel gears with the centre pinion of the movement and is driven from B through a rachet and pawl. By this means, if the spring breaks the barrel may rotate backwards without injuring the movement.'

    (I'm not copying these pics from John's thread as I'm not sure of forum etiquette on this matter. I'll look it up later.)

    Could this arrangement be a sort of 'slip clutch' if the WI is geared from wheel G, which seems likely as that wheel is closest to the dial plate?

    Re 'the hand will always track the winding mechanism'. In my grandfather's watch (and John's and others with this specific safety wheel), the primary 'winding mechanism' is the arbor of wheels B and G.

    (I'm basically talking aloud here as I'm way out of my depth, as you can no doubt tell.)

    In all tests the watch was hanging in a vertical position.

    And I always have the same breakfast, a croissant and coffee, although the croissants may vary.

    Regards
     
  32. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    False alarm, I think, re safety wheel.

    Having read more about this, I now see that the 'rachet and pawl' between the two geared wheels of the combined 'safety wheel' would mean the second one either engages or rachets and should not slip. And this second geared wheel connects to the centre pinion as a barrel normally would.

    So . . . does this mean, definitively, that something untoward is happening between the safety wheel's second wheel and the WI?
     
  33. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Re mainspring. Yes it was replaced in the recent repair. But how would a thinner/thicker, shorter/longer mainspring affect the relationship between time passed as the centre pinion turns and the WI gearing?
     
  34. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I finally went back and read the thread discussing Morcom's patent. It is essentially the same as Fitt's patent that I am quite familiar with. The difference from Fitt's patent on the Waltham 1861 model, is that Morcom adds a wheel to the winding train to suit the British taste in winding. It should have no effect on the up/dn mechanism (except for the direction of rotation).
    I am having a hard time parsing this statement. The indicator hand moves counter clockwise and your assertion is that it takes 42 hours to move the full range of the dial. I think that is 360 degrees, not between the zero and thirty marks.

    If you took a picture at 24 hours, I wonder why the indicator hand is not pointing at 24 hours in any of your pictures?

    If I visually transpose the bottom of the indicator dial to the top I do see there is 12 hours of rotation at the top of the dial between 30 and 0 for 42 hours on the 360 degrees (from 0 to 0).

    Since we have no information on where the indicator hand is when fully wound, I do not know where it will be in 24 hours. If it is at 30 in 24 hours then I would think it was at 6 when fully wound. :???:
     
  35. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    If you look at each of the pics of the three tests, you will see that on the first ones, when the watch is fully wound, the WI hand is on zero and the time is 2.45 (pm in my case). On the second one, 24 hours later when the time is again 2.45, the WI shows about 28.5 hours elapsed. The third ones show when the watch is fully unwound and stopped. These final times are more than 12 hours later than the ones after 24 hours.

    So I know how much time has elapsed between fully wound and fully unwound.

    In two of the tests (when the watch ran for more or less the same number of hours), the time elapsed according to the watch hands was about 39 hours, whereas the elapsed time shown on the WI was around 43.5 hours.

    You'll see that in each test, the WI hand has carried on beyond the zero, which is at 42 hours on the WI dial going counter-clockwise.

    At zero (see above).

    That's what I'm wondering too!
     
  36. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Re Morcom safety wheel.

    Ah!
     
  37. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Sorry for being so thick about this, but I really do want to understand.

    The standard practice is for the indicator hand to correctly display elapsed time by some means. i.e. if the indicator hand moves from 0 to 24, the watch hands should be pretty close to back where the were when the watch was wound.

    In talking to my friends who actually do this work, I think their practice for your watch would be to wind it fully after assembly with the dial on but the indicator hand not installed and them put that hand on pointing to 12:00 on the watch dial. i.e. straight up. Then the client would be told to wind the watch when it got past 24 on the indicator to the 0 position on the indicator. The reasoning being that one wants the mainspring to operate in the middle of its range.

    It seems that your watch has about a 25% error in the gear ratio driving the indicator.

    There needs to be some sort of intermediate gear (or gears) since the barrel arbor is given 5 or 6 turns to fully wind the watch. I do not work on watches myself due to lack of skill, but I think changing the number of teeth on a wheel by 25% and keeping the center to center distance of the pinion and wheel the same would be a challenge. If you changed both the pinion and the wheel to ensure that they mesh properly, the ratio should stay the same I think. The difference in the wheel would be 48 teeth vs 60 teeth for example.

    Maybe one of our watchmakers could chime back in here and bail me out. :)
     
  38. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Thank you, Tom. That makes sense to me. My original sin may have been to ask the repairers to have the WI show zero when fully wound. Although to have it set in the 'standard practice' way could be confusing, I suppose, for everyday customers.

    I have no wish to change the gear ratio. It was just a mystery to me and I wondered why it was doing that. If, as you say, it is because the gear ratio is incorrect, then that's a good enough explanation. Perhaps it was the same for my grandfather, who had far more pressing things to worry about. Get up. Wind watch. Go to work.

    I think I'll follow his routine and view the Up-Down dial as an adviser whose opinion I value but may not share.

    And, as I said, it does keep excellent time, which is quite important for a watch.
     
  39. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    Have just remembered that a wrong gear ratio doesn't square with the same difference at 24 hours and 39 hours. Dammit! Back to the . . .
     
  40. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Remember that any time you make an observation, you should repeat it at least 10 times then calculate the mean value and the standard deviation of the mean. :)
     
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  41. Steve Barnes

    Steve Barnes Registered User

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    I will do that, Tom! But at another time :)

    Re standard practice. I suppose I could remove the WI hand myself and place it at 12 o'clock when fully wound. I think though, on the rare occasions I wear it, I will instead wind it to the 6 hours mark and rewind at 30, to get the best from the middle of the range that you and vicllp describe. Then there will be no danger of accidentally forcing it each time at zero.

    Also I will look out for movements sold for spares that have an Up-Down indicator to take them apart and inspect the WI gears, count teeth etc. And look out too for movements that have the famous Morcom safety wheel to see exactly how that connects with the WI gears. Maybe then I'll have a 'Eureka moment' on this mystery.

    I now know more about wind indicators than I ever imagined and, as a bonus, about safety wheels.

    And also about Newsome & Co, one of the 'leading English watchmaking companies of the late nineteenth century', who in their adverts (see thread above) proclaimed themselves 'Sole makers of the Patent Safety Wheel for Going Barrel Watches'.

    I will be even prouder now when I wear my grandfather's watch with the special waistcoat I have for it. Maybe he was proud too, showing it to friends: 'Look it has an Up-Down thingy and an improved safety wheel. This is not just any old watch!'

    Thank you all for your contributions. This has been an excellent learning exercise for me.

    With kind regards
     
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  42. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    I believe that in post #19 Keith R has shown us photos of two dials which give clue to the actual difference between a WI and a PRI feature in operation
    . If I understand correctly the PRI dial only indicates where the hand should travel when set up correctly and then wound fully and runs down fully ....whereas the WI dial shows the indicator hand and it’s ability (when set up correctly) to travel past the down position that’s marked on the dial .....is this a correct method to determine the difference between the two?
    I’m including a dial with the sweet spot or best position to wind up again, highlighted in red and with a clear indication that the hand ...should be set up but not wound .....to travel past the down indication .....??


    E0D9CF47-A7D2-4570-8E9A-32E97A67B76B.jpeg 5F380BE9-2F91-4EF2-B540-77FEB6EC40DB.jpeg
     
  43. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    A better photo for above 36D5926F-A776-4921-B0B1-18E5A8B30516.jpeg
     
  44. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
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    6231D686-1528-48F6-BBEB-0694C21825B9.jpeg B565AF81-83C7-43E8-95C8-68DEF68427F7.jpeg D08EC3D1-CE12-43AF-B123-0D628695444D.jpeg And a second WI watch with dial moving instead of the hand which is fixed ....I assume this is a WI indicator watch as the 24 hour mark hash Mark is larger than the others ...
     
  45. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    #45 Tom McIntyre, Jan 21, 2020 at 10:00 AM
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020 at 10:55 AM
    I had an Election deck watch that was sold in my recent disposal of a big piece of my collection. It displayed the time since the last wind with the movement of the hand and rotated the underlying dial to the up position with respect to the hand. That is an uncommon design that does away the problem of being able to move the hand in two different directions.

    In my opinion there is no real difference between the up/down or wind indicator dial and the power reserve indicator other than the order of the numbers. I believe the mechanisms are the same under the dial. The term power reserve indicator makes sense to me when used with an auto-winding wristwatch.

    The wind indicators that have mechanisms to stop the movement of the hand before the spring is fully wound are a separate design element. I described the McIntyre earlier, but Waltham also uses the feature in the 1892 model wind indicator with a patent by Aune,

    Here is a picture of the Election.

    electionWIdial.jpg
     
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  46. viclip

    viclip Registered User
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    Your pictured watch has a Winding Indicator, for when the mainspring is fully wound up the value should indicate 0 (or less) which coincides with the French HAUT i.e. UP.. As the watch winds down the WI subdial values will increase to depict how many hours since the last wind, ultimately approaching BAS or DOWN. Ideally the watch will be wound back UP every 24 hours.

    In a Power Reserve Indicator watch, when the mainspring is wound up the hand indicates a maximum value such as 40 (hours worth of mainspring power). At full wind this coincides with the UP depiction ~ the mainspring is fully wound up. As the watch winds down the PRI subdial values will decrease to depict how many hours of power remain until the mainstpring becomes wound down completely i.e. approaching & generally attaining the DOWN position.

    Thus when the mainspring is fully wound up, each of the WI & PRI configurations are considered UP, wherein lies the user confusion, because the WI is UP at 0 whereas the PRI is UP at 40 (or whatever the mainspring duration may happen to be designed for whether 40 hours or 7 days etc.). By the same token when the mainspring is fully wound down, the indicator hand will approach the DOWN position which for a WI watch will be a high value such as 40 whereas the PRI watch will indicate 0.

    The above is a basic outline of the distinctions between the WI & PRI modes & yes, they are essentially the same thing but viewed from opposite ends if that makes sense. There are however underlying considerations at play for both types. As has been gone into in this thread, the WI subdial should be zeroed in such that when fully wound, the indicator hand actually shows a negative value i.e. something more UP than the 0 point. As for PRI subdials or scales, I have wristwatches which have non-equal spacing between the values thereby visually mimicking the behaviour of the mainspring's power curve.
     
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