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Unusual Ingraham movement questions

THTanner

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I bought this Ingraham movement at auction just because I have never seen one similar.
There are two extra wheel in front of the front plate.
The one in the upper right has multiple holes for pins with two of the holes containing pins.
The wheel in the lower left has its own click and ratchet and turns with the strike side winding arbor but has nothing else.

What sort of clock used this movement, and what was the purpose of these two wheels?

Thanks for your help
tom

IMG_5498.jpg IMG_5499.jpg IMG_5500.jpg
 

shutterbug

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It looks like the movement was converted from a clock to some sort of timer. Those holes might hold removable pins to set different times. It could be that it interacted with some kind of electrical circuit to turn something on and off at particular times of the day. Just guessing. It's missing parts of the going train, so that's why I think it's no longer clock-like. The strike side is wound down, and probably not used anymore. You could count teeth and see what the ratio is for determining how long it took for the pins to turn. The minute wheel would still turn once per hour.
 
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THTanner

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I think the upper right wheel was an attempt to make a nigh time silence function. That wheel is driven by the hour and has a lever that spans over to the count lever and raises it to prevent the strike from occurring. Of course that would mean the strike would have to be allowed to continue 12 hours later or it would not match the hour hand. The pin holes do not seem to allow that 12 hour lock out so I am not sure how the silent feature was intended to be used.

The lower left wheel is a total puzzle and while it is turned by the winding arbor it can also be turned independently in one direction.

Below is a photo of the escape wheel. What is missing on the time train is just the verge and the spring clip to keep it on the post. What sort of verge would this use?

IMG_5501.jpg
 
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Jim Hartog

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Hello THTanner,

From the shape of the escape wheel teeth, I would guess strip pallet dead beat. To confirm, remove the Q tip and note the direction of rotation of the escape wheel. Dead beat has the teeth pointing in the direction of rotation while recoil has the teeth pointing away from the direction of motion.

Jim
 
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THTanner

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Hello THTanner,

From the shape of the escape wheel teeth, I would guess strip pallet dead beat. To confirm, remove the Q tip and note the direction of rotation of the escape wheel. Dead beat has the teeth pointing in the direction of rotation while recoil has the teeth pointing away from the direction of motion.

Jim
Thanks - did the check - and is dead beat. Will measure for 6 or 7 teeth and set one up
 

THTanner

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The EW has 27 teeth so I think the pallets should span 7 teeth? The table on Tmesavers says 8 teeth for 30-39 tooth EW

Half deadbeat would be nice - will try a couple and see
 

shutterbug

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If the wheel was designed to lift the count hook, it would trigger the strike but disable the stop. It must have another purpose.
 
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THTanner

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If the wheel was designed to lift the count hook, it would trigger the strike but disable the stop. It must have another purpose.
There is another modification between the plates that I have yet to fully understand. The count hook is lifted up more than it is lifted normally for the strike sequence and at the higher level it blocks the strike from happening. Part of the modification is that it lifts the stop lever high enough that it blocks the fan, but it also stops S3. This process of blocking the fan has done some damage to the fan and it arbor and as shipped the fan just spins freely. But the S3 stop still works. When I get the whole sequence figured out I will update.
 

THTanner

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1/4 of the number of teeth on the escape wheel is usually a good place to start, but there are examples that use both more and less.

RC
Apparently half deadbeat verges are not commonly sold. Timesavers has one and it is right handed while I need a left handed. Also it is .78 inches between the pallets and I need .67. So I guess I will be modifying a verge to be a half deadbeat, or perhaps making one fresh from a blank strip. Any simple references on how to make a half deadbeat?
 

R. Croswell

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Apparently half deadbeat verges are not commonly sold. Timesavers has one and it is right handed while I need a left handed. Also it is .78 inches between the pallets and I need .67. So I guess I will be modifying a verge to be a half deadbeat, or perhaps making one fresh from a blank strip. Any simple references on how to make a half deadbeat?
Clock Repair Basics, by Steven Conover, pages 43-45 has a well illustrated description of how to setup a half-deadbeat verge. Practical Clock Escapements by Laurie Penman is perhaps more detailed technically but about twice as expensive. Keep in mind that a strip deadbeat and a half-deadbeat are essentially the same thing not to be confused with what is sometimes called a half-beat escapement. Perhaps this picture of an Ingraham with a half-deadbeat verge would be helpful. The number of teeth spanned is not cast in stone. The important thing is to have the correct lift angle for the impulse faces at the tips of the verge. About 1.5 to 2 degrees I believe is typical.

RC

ingraham-half-deadbeat.jpg
 
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THTanner

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Perhaps this picture of an Ingraham with a half-deadbeat verge would be helpful. The number of teeth spanned is not cast in stone. The important thing is to have the correct lift angle for the impulse faces at the tips of the verge. About 1.5 to 2 degrees I believe is typical.

RC
Thanks - that helps a lot. I found an old Ingraham in the bone pile with a verge intact that matches your photo, but it is for a much larger EW and is also for the wrong side. It looks like most of the verges that I can find online to buy are for recoils and only one end is bent. On what I need both the entrance and exit ends are bent. I guess I will buy a couple of recoils, anneal them, do some bending to get the proper distance between for 7 teeth, then some work on the impulse faces and see how it comes out. I have Conover's book and will review his specs. I have a verge bending tool in box that I got from a shop that closed. Will be fun to learn how to use it.
 

R. Croswell

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Timesavers shows part # 34122 with 0.665" spacing as a NEW item on page 100 of catalog #44 (2019-2021) but that number comes up with nothing on-line. They also show # 34121 with 0.670" spacing. These are just the half-deadbeat strips w/o the saddle and crutch. I suggest you give them a phone call, sometimes they have things that don't show up on-line.

RC
 
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THTanner

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Timesavers shows part # 34122 with 0.665" spacing as a NEW item on page 100 of catalog #44 (2019-2021) but that number comes up with nothing on-line. They also show # 34121 with 0.670" spacing. These are just the half-deadbeat strips w/o the saddle and crutch. I suggest you give them a phone call, sometimes they have things that don't show up on-line.

RC
They are out of both of those - I have them on back order - but there is no time line or way to know if or when.
They are also out of pallet jewels and a whole lot of other items in the catalog that are no longer really there.
Apparently the online order system looks at real inventory pretty well, but even that is not exact.
Maybe I will get the above before I manage to make one that works LOL
 
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THTanner

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I had a suggestion that it might be a modified movement to time lock a vault and the upper right wheel somehow allowed control of the vault locking. Still no idea about the wheel on the lower left.

When the wheel in the upper right blocks the strike function (there is no strike hammer in the movement) it prevents the wheel in the lower left from turning on the hour. When the strike does function the wheel in the lower left rotates with the count wheel. How much it rotates is a function of the position of the count wheel which is not the same amount for the same hour of each day since it gets locked out for awhile depending on the pins, then allowed to move again later. Whatever it was connected to needed to have that wheel on a ratchet so that when the strike side was wound the wheel did not turn with the arbor.
 
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shutterbug

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David LaBounty has a video on how the verge is made and how to adjust it. It won't break the bank, and is very informative. Click here to check it out. I think it's about 9th on the list.
 
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THTanner

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David LaBounty has a video on how the verge is made and how to adjust it. It won't break the bank, and is very informative. Click here to check it out. I think it's about 9th on the list.
Thanks Shutter - I contacted David and ordered the DVD. He said it won't show all the steps, but enough to make one and know what matters. He also had a .67 verge to send me so I have one working example to toy with and to copy.

A bit more clarity on whatever this is. The upper right wheel - which I call the PinWheel is a 24 hour timer. There are 13 holes spanning about 7 hours of the 24 hour day. When this arrived there were pins in hole 3 and 11. The J hook has been removed so the usual method to start the strike does not happen. As a pin in the pinwheel contacts the activation lever, it pushes down on the pin end and lifts the count arm and the strike train goes into motion. There is no hammer, but the lower left wheel rotates with the arbor while the strike train operates. How long the strike train runs depends on how you bend the activation lever. As the pinwheel rotates the activation lever gets lifted higher and higher until it drops off the pin, then the count arm drops back down and the strike train is halted by the stop pin. The teeth and cuts in the count wheel do not come into play and the count wheel could be removed entirely and this would all still work. So there is no issue with the count wheel not operating each hour.

The pinwheel turns counter clockwise, enters the 13 pin zone and lifts the activation lever, and then exits about 6 hours later lifting it again. With just two pins in the pinwheel, the wheel on the lower left would turn for a set amount of time while the first pin contacts the activation lever, then repeat that same event while the last pin contacts the activation lever.

So either this locks something for 6 hours out of 24 or it could unlock something 6 out of 24. Whatever the wheel on the lower left turns for a short period of time twice a day would probably be some sort of rotating switch or electrical contact that is binary - turning on and then turning off with the same amount of rotation. No idea what that might have been. Perhaps it turned a fish tank light on and off once a day.
 

THTanner

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David LaBounty has a video on how the verge is made and how to adjust it. It won't break the bank, and is very informative. Click here to check it out. I think it's about 9th on the list.
Thanks Shutter - I contacted David and ordered the DVD. He said it won't show all the steps, but enough to make one and know what matters. He also had a .67 verge to send me so I have one working example to toy with and to copy.

A bit more clarity on whatever this is. The upper right wheel - which I call the PinWheel is a 24 hour timer. There are 13 holes spanning about 7 hours of the 24 hour day. When this arrived there were pins in hole 3 and 11. The J hook has been removed so the usual method to start the strike does not happen. As a pin in the pinwheel contacts the activation lever, it pushes down on the pin end and lifts the count arm and the strike train goes into motion. There is no hammer, but the lower left wheel rotates with the arbor while the strike train operates. How long the strike train runs depends on how you bend the activation lever. As the pinwheel rotates the activation lever gets lifted higher and higher until it drops off the pin, then the count arm drops back down and the strike train is halted by the stop pin. The teeth and cuts in the count wheel do not come into play and the count wheel could be removed entirely and this would all still work. So there is no issue with the count wheel not operating each hour.

The pinwheel turns counter clockwise, enters the 13 pin zone and lifts the activation lever, and then exits about 6 hours later lifting it again. With just two pins in the pinwheel, the wheel on the lower left would turn for a set amount of time while the first pin contacts the activation lever, then repeat that same event while the last pin contacts the activation lever.

So either this locks something for 6 hours out of 24 or it could unlock something 6 out of 24. Whatever the wheel on the lower left turns for a short period of time twice a day would probably be some sort of rotating switch or electrical contact that is binary - turning on and then turning off with the same amount of rotation. No idea what that might have been.
 
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