Unusual count wheel problem

shutterbug

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I'm still of the opinion that it needs to drop down below the pin during the strike, and raise up on the count wheel spikes to stop the train. If it can't be lowered, then raise the count lever - the one that rides on the count wheel.
 

D.th.munroe

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I had one of these in a few months ago.
As shutterbug said it doesn't appear to be falling enough.
If you take the count wheel hook off does it continue to strike?
 

Bruce Alexander

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It's pretty clear that there isn't enough clearance between the lock pin and lock lever when the Mechanism is trying to strike.

The question becomes what changed between the time when it ran properly and now? In reference to the Lock Pin, the Lock Lever is too high so that the Pin catches its top edge which stops the strike cold. Through use, one would expect the Count Lever to wear down, not raise up. This type of wear would increase the clearance, not decrease it. Raising the Count Lever sounds counter-productive to me. Instead of trying to bend or file down levers made of thick steel, wouldn't it be easier to look at the Lock Pin to see if it can be adjusted? Perhaps it has been inadvertently bent. Maybe, through bushing, the center has shifted just enough to cause the problem. I don't know but can we look at the Lock Wheel and Lock Pin please?

Also, I'm fairly certain that the curved shape of the Count Wheel Lever allows the Pegs on the Count Wheel to raise the Lock Lever into the Path of the Lock Pin. That would be sufficient to put the Train Back into Lock until the top of the hour comes back around. If someone else mentioned that earlier, I missed it. D.th.munroe, you've worked on one of these movements. Is that how it is supposed to go back into lock when it's working properly?


If the Lock Pin can't be sufficiently adjusted, then I agree with JimmyOz. A temporary mock up should be fabricated to test any proposed changes to the Count Lever.
 

Uhralt

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It's pretty clear that there isn't enough clearance between the lock pin and lock lever when the Mechanism is trying to strike.

The question becomes what changed between the time when it ran properly and now? In reference to the Lock Pin, the Lock Lever is too high so that the Pin catches its top edge which stops the strike cold. Through use, one would expect the Count Lever to wear down, not raise up. This type of wear would increase the clearance, not decrease it. Raising the Count Lever sounds counter-productive to me. Instead of trying to bend or file down levers made of thick steel, wouldn't it be easier to look at the Lock Pin to see if it can be adjusted? Perhaps it has been inadvertently bent. Maybe, through bushing, the center has shifted just enough to cause the problem. I don't know but can we look at the Lock Wheel and Lock Pin please?

Also, I'm fairly certain that the curved shape of the Count Wheel Lever allows the Pegs on the Count Wheel to raise the Lock Lever into the Path of the Lock Pin. That would be sufficient to put the Train Back into Lock until the top of the hour comes back around. If someone else mentioned that earlier, I missed it. D.th.munroe, you've worked on one of these movements. Is that how it is supposed to go back into lock when it's working properly?


If the Lock Pin can't be sufficiently adjusted, then I agree with JimmyOz. A temporary mock up should be fabricated to test any proposed changes to the Count Lever.
I begin wondering if the count lever is original to the clock or has been swapped over form another vintage clock. It looks so sturdy that it seem unlikely that it has been bent out of shape. It would be interesting to know if the owner or previous owner ever had it strike correctly.

Uhralt
 
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THTanner

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I had one of these in a few months ago.
As shutterbug said it doesn't appear to be falling enough.
If you take the count wheel hook off does it continue to strike?
I am curious about one thing. Does the hook just slide along the lower level until it hits the post on the count wheel, or is it supposed to rise and fall like most count levers? And clearly the count wheel turns under the tension spring as shown by scratch marks in the photo. If it just sets up against the post while the wheel is turning I would think over time it would cause the wheel to rotate. And from the photos it does not seem that the leading edge of the hook has enough slope to make it easily lift up. I have never seen one of these and am just puzzled by the mechanics of simply running into the post to stop the strike.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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I am curious about one thing. Does the hook just slide along the lower level until it hits the post on the count wheel, or is it supposed to rise and fall like most count levers?
My theory is that the hook slides along the lower level of the Count Wheel until it hits the posts. The curved outer surface of the "hook" may force it to begin to slide up the post just enough for the Lock Pin to hit the Lock Lever stopping the Strike Train until the top of the hour comes back around.
 

djhaggarty

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Dec 11, 2015
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Hello to all, I've fixed it thanks to all of your inputs and advice.
For the record, the stop and warning pins were OK, not bent.
As TH had said I should try lowering the count wheel hook so that the lever would be lower and stop the warning pin from being hit. Well I couldn't because the lever was hitting the warning wheel arbor at the scoop part. So I filed the scoop by about 2mm so the lever could go lower and that was enough for the lever to be low enough to avoid the warning pin. So I didn't need to touch the count wheel hook.
Take a look at the video, it's interesting to see the count wheel hook as it goes round, dead smooth and no jumping like other strike wheels I've seen!
If I can provide any more info/pictures for the record, please say. Otherwise thanks to everyone for all your help, I'm sure I will be back in future as I continue with my clock repair hobby, I've got a few more already ready to work on, and I'm planning a longcase clock design based on a grasshopper with a few changes for a future build.
Some advice before I go though p, I have rebushed all of the wheels as they were pretty bad, and I have cleaned the clock in the ultrasonic cleaner. My feeling is that I shouldn't polish the brass to a mirror shine, but leave it looking old but clean. Do you agree?
Cheers David

 
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D.th.munroe

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My theory is that the hook slides along the lower level of the Count Wheel until it hits the posts. The curved outer surface of the "hook" may force it to begin to slide up the post just enough for the Lock Pin to hit the Lock Lever stopping the Strike Train until the top of the hour comes back around.
Yes the hook just slides up the points of the count wheel it should stop right at the top of the point.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Glad you got it fixed David. :thumb:

I thought that I did hear a slight "buzzing" sound before the movement went back into lock. Perhaps that was your
lever was hitting the warning wheel arbor at the scoop part
Somehow, the lever was bent out of adjustment at some point.

Please note that, while not always the case, the Lock Pin is different than the Warning Pin in your movement. Using the terms interchangeably can be confusing. The position and thus the timing of your Warning Pin and Lock Pins are individually set so you can have a short or long Warning Run.

I think that when your movement falls out of warning, you want your Count Wheel Lever to be well clear of one of those columns.

Again, congratulations. I know you must be happy. Glad we could help.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Yes the hook just slides up the points of the count wheel it should stop right at the top of the point.
Thanks D.
I thought that must be it.

More common Count Wheel Mechanisms have maintenance wheels to lift and lower the Count Wheel Lever. When the deep slots in the count wheel line up with the deep part of the Maintenance Wheel "Cam" the Strike Train goes back into lock when the Lock Pin is captured. Sometimes the Maintenance Wheel does the Locking.

That's certainly not the case here.

An interesting, and very efficient design with fewer moving parts. :thumb:

Regards,

Bruce
 
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djhaggarty

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Dec 11, 2015
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Glad you got it fixed David. :thumb:

I thought that I did hear a slight "buzzing" sound before the movement went back into lock. Perhaps that was your


Somehow, the lever was bent out of adjustment at some point.

Please note that, while not always the case, the Lock Pin is different than the Warning Pin in your movement. Using the terms interchangeably can be confusing. The position and thus the timing of your Warning Pin and Lock Pins are individually set so you can have a short or long Warning Run.

I think that when your movement falls out of warning, you want your Count Wheel Lever to be well clear of one of those columns.

Again, congratulations. I know you must be happy. Glad we could help.

Regards,

Bruce
Thanks Bruce, yes I'm happy! Your right I should have got my lock pin and maintenance pin terminology right, sorry about that, I didn't mean to confuse...
The lever arm with the scoop wasn't riveted entirely central to the main lever arbor which meant it was made slightly lower than it should be which was why I had to file the end of the scoop. Will never know if it ever worked properly as the previous owner is deceased, but the bell was bent away from the hammer so it never rang so someone had obviously played with it!
 

Uhralt

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Some advice before I go though p, I have rebushed all of the wheels as they were pretty bad, and I have cleaned the clock in the ultrasonic cleaner. My feeling is that I shouldn't polish the brass to a mirror shine, but leave it looking old but clean. Do you agree?
Yes.

Uhralt
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff