Unusual count wheel problem

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
I am restoring a 30 hour longcase clock and the count wheel striking mechanism has confused me because it's not the same as in any of the books or forum posts that I've read!
Usually the count wheel circumference is high with slots for the count hook to drop in at the end of each strike, but on this one the circumference is mainly low (see picture) which means the warning wheel comes round and is stopped by the warning pin hitting the lever which has dropped and so I only ever get one strike, as the pin wheel can no longer rotate.
I've tried moving the two pin wheels that the lever strikes, and the striking wheel to different positions but the result is always the same. What am I not understanding please? Any help will be appreciated as I've tried to get this working without success over the last three days!
Kind regards, David IMG_20200327_160305.jpg IMG_20200327_165907.jpg IMG_20200318_172207.jpg
 

Uhralt

NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,063
627
113
Country
Region
I haven't seen this before but it looks like an inverted count wheel. As long as the count lever is free to fall completely down after each strike, the clock should continue striking. Once the lever hits the spike when falling down, the strike should stop.

I looks like someone bathed your movement in oil.;)

Uhralt
 

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,939
459
83
utah
Country
Region
What makes you think it lifts and drops with each strike?
-----------------------
Never mind; I see what you're describing. But isn't the crow's bill shaped thing what arrests the count wheel? When a peg comes up against it?
 

Uhralt

NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,063
627
113
Country
Region
What makes you think it lifts and drops with each strike?
-----------------------
Never mind; I see what you're describing. But isn't the crow's bill shaped thing what arrests the count wheel? When a peg comes up against it?
That's also a possibility. Good for bringing it up. Unfortunately I have never seen one of these.

Uhralt
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
10,848
851
113
Dorset
Country
Region
It's similar in function to the pin type ones that you get on Northern clocks isn't it?
 

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Has the "crow's bill" arm been bent up a little? That would change how the arbor acts that controls the lever that catches the stop pin. Pretty thick chunk of metal to bend, but there appears no other way to control that stop function?
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
What makes you think it lifts and drops with each strike?
-----------------------
Never mind; I see what you're describing. But isn't the crow's bill shaped thing what arrests the count wheel? When a peg comes up against it?
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
What makes you think it lifts and drops with each strike?
-----------------------
Never mind; I see what you're describing. But isn't the crow's bill shaped thing what arrests the count wheel? When a peg comes up against it?
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
The lever controlled by the cam on the minute hand puts the clock into warning mode OK, the lever is above the warning wheel pin and the other part of the lever which has like a scoop end to it lines up with the pin on the second wheel(?) . Then when the minute hand reaches the hour, the lever drops and the movement starts to strike, but the warning wheel pin comes around and hits the lever before the crow's bill shaped thing (count hook?) reaches the end of the trough on the count wheel. So I only ever get one strike!
Trust me to get a tester like this on my first longcase restoration!
This lever is made of thick metal so I don't think it was ever bent out of shape.
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
I haven't seen this before but it looks like an inverted count wheel. As long as the count lever is free to fall completely down after each strike, the clock should continue striking. Once the lever hits the spike when falling down, the strike should stop.

I looks like someone bathed your movement in oil.;)

Uhralt
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
Unfortunately the count lever never reaches the end of the trough because the warning wheel is stopped first by the lever.
The movement was incredibly dirty and oily. Hadn't worked for years before I bought it just before the lockdown. I've had to replace all the bushes and now the clock runs very sweetly, apart from the strike problem.
 

Uhralt

NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,063
627
113
Country
Region
This lever is made of thick metal so I don't think it was ever bent out of shape.
Is it a lever with an angled tail? if it is, the connection between the two pieces may have become somewhat loose and the angle has changed. Could you provide a detailed look at the lever, maybe from different angles?

Uhralt
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
Is it a lever with an angled tail? if it is, the connection between the two pieces may have become somewhat loose and the angle has changed. Could you provide a detailed look at the lever, maybe from different angles?

Uhralt
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
778
164
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
When it strikes the one time how close is the stop pin to the top of the lever that stops it, if it is close I would say someone has adjusted the levers?
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
[1]
Is it a lever with an angled tail? if it is, the connection between the two pieces may have become somewhat loose and the angle has changed. Could you provide a detailed look at the lever, maybe from different angles?

Uhralt
Is it a lever with an angled tail? if it is, the connection between the two pieces may have become somewhat loose and the angle has changed. Could you provide a detailed look at the lever, maybe from different angles?

Uhralt
 

Uhralt

NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,063
627
113
Country
Region
Here are a couple of videos which I hope you can see OK. The first is of the lever

Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files

The second video is of the strike following the warning period

Meet Google Drive – One place for all your files

Many thanks
David
Unfortunately these links don't work for me even though I have access to Google Drive. One needs individual permission to view them. Can you upload them to YouTube and post a link here? Then everybody can view them.

Uhralt
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
Hi David,

It's very difficult to imagine depths from a two-dimensional image but it looks to me that perhaps your Count Wheel Lever and Warning Wheel Lock Lever are off by 90 degrees. The Lock Lever looks like it should be above the Warning/Lock Wheel. When the lever drops, so would the Warning/Lock Lever. The working surface would have to be offset like a tab to allow the warning/lock pin to pass the lever, but if that is the case, holding the lever on top of one of the Count Wheel "columns" the lever would keep the lock surface in the path of the pin.

Does that make sense?

That's my best guess based on what little I can see.

I can't access your files. Can you upload your video to YouTube and provide a link to it there? Upload your video file to YouTube (or one of the 3rd Party Video Hosting sites listed in the Video Embed Link) Click on the Film Icon at the top of your post and follow the Link directions.

Regards,

Bruce
 
Last edited:

bangster

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Jan 1, 2005
19,939
459
83
utah
Country
Region
Cai't read the links without getting permssion. Phooey.
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
Hi David,

It's very difficult to imagine depths from a two-dimensional image but it looks to me that perhaps your Count Wheel Lever and Warning Wheel Lock Lever are off by 90 degrees. The Lock Lever looks like it should be above the Warning/Lock Wheel. When the lever drops, so would the Warning/Lock Lever. The working surface would have to be offset like a tab to allow the warning/lock pin to pass the lever, but if that is the case, holding the lever on top of one of the Count Wheel "columns" the lever would keep the lock surface in the path of the pin.

Does that make sense?

That's my best guess based on what little I can see.

I can't access your files. Can you upload your video to YouTube and provide a link to it there? Upload your video file to YouTube (or one of the 3rd Party Video Hosting sites listed in the Video Embed Link) Click on the Film Icon at the top of your post and follow the Link directions.

Regards,

Bruce
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
Hi David,

I still can't access your files/videos.
It looks like they may be marked "Private".
I think you'll need to edit them and change permissions to "Public".

YouTubePermissions.jpg
 

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Hopefully you can see them this time!
The videos open and run fine now. But you say it hits the back side of the pin not the front?? Any chance you are running it backwards? You said the time side is working fine, so I assume that the two ratchets are on correctly, but I don't see how it could hit the back side unless the wheel was turning backwards?? I have never seen that set up, but I don't see how it could otherwise. Is the count wheel turning clockwise as seen from the back? It should be turning anti clockwise.
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
The videos open and run fine now. But you say it hits the back side of the pin not the front?? Any chance you are running it backwards? You said the time side is working fine, so I assume that the two ratchets are on correctly, but I don't see how it could hit the back side unless the wheel was turning backwards?? I have never seen that set up, but I don't see how it could otherwise. Is the count wheel turning clockwise as seen from the back? It should be turning anti clockwise.
Sorry I wasn't too clear, the pin hits the back of the shovel. (my simplistic thought was the shovel scooped the pin but I must be wrong, also I see wear marks on the back of the shovel indicating I was wrong too!) The count wheel is turning anticlockwise so its definitely running the right way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
David,

Yep, the videos are accessible now. Thanks! :thumb:

This is a shot in the dark, but it should be easy to test.

The arbor that the Count Wheel Lever slides over is square so there are four possible "settings" for it in relation to the Warning/Lock Lever.

Try lifting the Lock Lever so that it rests above the Wheel, not below it and then re-install your Count Wheel Lever so that it can act on the Count Wheel.

It seems to me that the Lock Lever needs to be held in the path of the Warning/Lock Pin which may happen when the Lever is resting on one of the "columns" (vs. normal slots).

It shouldn't take long to test it out. :???:


Regards,

Bruce

Countwheel_Setup.jpg Exposed_View.jpg
 

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Try lifting the Lock Lever so that it rests above the Wheel, not below it and then re-install your Count Wheel Lever so that it can act on the Count Wheel.
Unfortunately it is a square mounting and it seems it must be in the proper orientation currently since everything is very close to being correct. Originally I thought that perhaps the arm could be bent down a bit to adjust the depth, but apparently it is pretty hefty and not easily bent.

I wonder if the tip has warn away too much and is letting it sit too low now? Somewhere there must be some adjustment for the depth versus the warning and stop pins.
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
Okay, well the Warning Lever and Pin are kind of a Red Herring. It's the Lock Pin on the far right of the Video which is dropping right back into Lock after Warning. Somehow, the Count Wheel Lever is not keeping the Lock Lever out of the path of the Lock Pin so something is wrong with that linkage. Perhaps there is some Maintenance Wheel whose timing needs to be adjusted? I can't see it but I think our focus needs to shift on what is happening to the Lock Pin right after the movement falls out of Warning.


Edit: Another possibility is that you need to set up a longer Warning Run. We just can't see what's going on with the Lock vs. Strike States of the Strike Train. A longer Warning Run might help to insure that the Train doesn't fall right back into lock.
 
Last edited:

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
778
164
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
In post #14, I said, someone may have adjusted the levers (add 'changed'), having looked at the video there is no way that when the lever drops to the run position on the wheel that the pin will clear the stop lever inside the movement regardless of whatever else is done as it works now. If it were me I would get a flat bit of brass and cut out the shape of the outside lever then file the end till the lever (which looks way to long) clears the pin on the inside of the movement and then look at how the warning works. I can see no reason it needs to rest on the top of the division uprights (as in the photo) and as long as the it clears these uprights when it drops all should work.

In other words the hooky bit is to long.
 

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
The videos open and run fine now. But you say it hits the back side of the pin not the front?? Any chance you are running it backwards? You said the time side is working fine, so I assume that the two ratchets are on correctly, but I don't see how it could hit the back side unless the wheel was turning backwards?? I have never seen that set up, but I don't see how it could otherwise. Is the count wheel turning clockwise as seen from the back? It should be turning anti clockwise.
Vv
In post #14, I said, someone may have adjusted the levers (add 'changed'), having looked at the video there is no way that when the lever drops to the run position on the wheel that the pin will clear the stop lever inside the movement regardless of whatever else is done as it works now. If it were me I would get a flat bit of brass and cut out the shape of the outside lever then file the end till the lever (which looks way to long) clears the pin on the inside of the movement and then look at how the warning works. I can see no reason it needs to rest on the top of the division uprights (as in the photo) and as long as the it clears these uprights when it drops all should work.

In other words the hooky bit is to long.
IMG_20200416_195820.jpg


I've added another video on YouTube (link above) which shows the problem of the warning pin hitting the lever and stopping the strike.
I can't shorten the hookie on the count wheel because the lever would hit the warning wheel arbor inside (at the scoop). If anything the hook needs to be lengthened by about 1/4 inch so that the lever is raised enough to clear the warning pin and maintenance pin until the next pip on the count wheel is reached.
The lever arms look original and too thick to bend and can't be adjusted so I'm pretty sure they must be in the right place.
So I'm not convinced about lengthening the count wheel lever hook by so much, but am open to more suggestions.
Thanks for all the help so far, this is a great forum.

IMG_20200416_195820.jpg
 

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
If anything the hook needs to be lengthened by about 1/4 inch so that the lever is raised enough to clear the warning pin and maintenance pin until the next pip on the count wheel is reached.
Can you post a video that shows the count wheel and that lever in action? What puzzles me is that the lever that interacts with the warning pin and the stop pin initially drops below that wheel at the top of the hour then it comes back up and catches the stop pin. What is making that come back up?

What happens if you rotate the whole lever assembly that is between the plates 90 degrees up and put the count wheel hook back on to ride the wheel?. That would place it (perhaps) where it interacts with the pins at the top of the wheel instead of the bottom, then the action of the warning and stop pin would and lever would seem to correspond more closely with what is happening. I am not sure what the other lever close to the back plate does. I cannot see it interacting with anything in the video.

Also it looks like the warning and stop pins are at different distances from the arbor? Perhaps just from the video angle? But I think that at the top of the hour the locking part should drop down below the pins (and above the arbor) then when the count wheel hook lands on the post the blocking plates stays up high and catches the pin at the top of the wheel:???:
 

shutterbug

Moderator
Staff member
NAWCC Member
Oct 19, 2005
46,112
1,757
113
North Carolina
Country
Region
I think the warning lever that holds the train in readiness for the strike should drop down out of the way of the pin until the strike ends. At that time it should be lifted by one of the higher points on the count wheel and end the strike. Maybe someone raised it in a failed attempt at repair.
Your count wheel is like a reverse image of a "normal" one. The shelves are of differing lengths which establish the length of the strike (ie, the number), and the raised portions are the stopping points.
Edit: watching the video again, the stop is not occurring with that pin, but with the other one on the same lever. I couldn't see if it needs to be higher or lower over there, but still assume lower.
 
Last edited:

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
Can you post a video that shows the count wheel and that lever in action? What puzzles me is that the lever that interacts with the warning pin and the stop pin initially drops below that wheel at the top of the hour then it comes back up and catches the stop pin. What is making that come back up?

What happens if you rotate the whole lever assembly that is between the plates 90 degrees up and put the count wheel hook back on to ride the wheel?. That would place it (perhaps) where it interacts with the pins at the top of the wheel instead of the bottom, then the action of the warning and stop pin would and lever would seem to correspond more closely with what is happening. I am not sure what the other lever close to the back plate does. I cannot see it interacting with anything in the video.

Also it looks like the warning and stop pins are at different distances from the arbor? Perhaps just from the video angle? But I think that at the top of the hour the locking part should drop down below the pins (and above the arbor) then when the count wheel hook lands on the post the blocking plates stays up high and catches the pin at the top of the wheel:???:
Video of the count wheel in action below


I can't rotate the lever upwards 90 degrees as the lever arms don't then locate with any wheel pins and the square lugs at each end of the lever no longer line up to mount the count wheel hook arm and the minute hand arm on the outside of the plates correctly.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

djhaggarty

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
21
4
3
Country
Can you post a video that shows the count wheel and that lever in action? What puzzles me is that the lever that interacts with the warning pin and the stop pin initially drops below that wheel at the top of the hour then it comes back up and catches the stop pin. What is making that come back up?

What happens if you rotate the whole lever assembly that is between the plates 90 degrees up and put the count wheel hook back on to ride the wheel?. That would place it (perhaps) where it interacts with the pins at the top of the wheel instead of the bottom, then the action of the warning and stop pin would and lever would seem to correspond more closely with what is happening. I am not sure what the other lever close to the back plate does. I cannot see it interacting with anything in the video.

Also it looks like the warning and stop pins are at different distances from the arbor? Perhaps just from the video angle? But I think that at the top of the hour the locking part should drop down below the pins (and above the arbor) then when the count wheel hook lands on the post the blocking plates stays up high and catches the pin at the top of the wheel:???:
Another video of the lever in action

 

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
I can't rotate the lever upwards 90 degrees as the lever arms don't then locate with any wheel pins and the square lugs at each end of the lever no longer line up to mount the count wheel hook arm and the minute hand arm on the outside of the plates correctly.
Ok - I guessed at the angle that might get it in line with the pins - but obviously not workable. I am out of ideas :(
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
You don't appear to have adequate clearance of the Lock Lever when the Count Wheel Lever is down in it's Running Strike Position.

Is the Lock Pin bent down slightly? If so, can you safely bend it towards the Wheel Arbor?

It looks like needs to pass over the Lock Lever when the Clock is supposed to be Striking.

You're going from Lock to Warning back to Lock regardless of whether the Lock Lever is in the up or down position.



Mystery Arbor.jpg

Edit:

Never mind about the Left side of the Lever Assembly. I see in your most recent video what its function is. So something is preventing the Lock Lever from dropping completely out of the way, or the Stop Pin is bent out of position so that it catches the Lock Lever when it shouldn't... is what I'm seeing...
 
Last edited:

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Normally something would lift the count wheel "hook" lever after, or during, each strike and let it drop back onto the count wheel lower area or make it land on top of the post. In the videos I don't see the lever or the hook being lifted except during the hour initiation. So I don't see how, once it is on the lower lever, that it would ever get lifted up to land on the post. Is there something missing that should lift the lever back up after every strike making it miss the stop or warning pin, then drop back down onto the lower area of the count wheel until the hook lands on a post keeping the lever high enough to catch the pin?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bruce Alexander

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
Yes, I wondered about that too TH. Could it be that the Columns are a form of lock? There's no half-hour strike here.
For whatever reason, there just isn't enough clearance between the Lock Pin and the Lock Lever when the Strike Train is supposed to be running.
 
Last edited:

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
Yes, I wondered about that too TH. Count it be that the Columns are a form of lock? There's no half-hour strike here.
For whatever reason, there just isn't enough clearance between the Lock Pin and the Lock Lever when the Strike Train is supposed to be running.
Hmmmmm - so the count wheel hook would also act as a stop against the post? I think that would present a problem especially since it looks like the count wheel can rotate under the spider spring. But there is definitely a puzzle here that escapes me.
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
"Count it be" should read "Could it be". We don't know what's normal for this movement so it's very difficult to identify what is not normal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: THTanner

THTanner

NAWCC Member
Jul 3, 2016
2,838
237
63
Carson City, Nevada
Country
Region
I think somewhere up above it was suggested that perhaps that wheel needs to be timed differently. Maybe turn in 90 degrees and see if the hammer lift flips the lever up at just the right time?
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
778
164
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
Now I have seen the video of the count wheel I am sure that the hook on that lever (the one showing on the outside) is too long and when it drops it is not dropping far enough for the stop lever (on the inside of the plate) to clear the stop pin, as I said above just make a mock-up lever of the same size and file the hook till the stop pin clears the lever on the inside of the plate then it will run till it hits the upright on the count wheel. then if you turn the minute cannon this will lift it above the upright and the warning will kick in. If you look closely at the stop pin it is only about 2 mm to be taken off the hook and it will clear the lever. Then use the mock-up as a template for how much you need to file off the original lever.
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
JimmyOz,
I've seen the Lock or Stop Pin will not clear the Lock Lever when the movement drops out of Warning, but what is it's purpose if Lock is achieved by the Count Wheel Count Wheel Columns? Could it be that the Count Wheel Lever begins to ride up the Count Wheel Columns until the Lock Pin is captured by the Lock Lever inside the plates? That brings me back to whether the Lock Pin on the Wheel has been bent slightly.
 

JimmyOz

Registered User
Feb 21, 2008
778
164
43
65
Gold Coast Qld
Country
Region
I have no problem with that thinking as I said in #14 someone has adjusted the levers, they may have also adjusted the pin? However as I suggested, if the OP makes a rough copy and then files the hook so the drop then makes it miss the lock pin on the inside lever and it runs, then maybe we can work out how it is supposed to work, as it is now it will not work.
 

Bruce Alexander

Sponsor
NAWCC Brass Member
Feb 22, 2010
7,326
774
113
Country
Region
David,
Which Wheels did you bush? Can we see a close-up of the Lock Wheel and Pin?
Please see attached photos.

Lift into Stop.jpg Clear Pin.jpg

Edit: JimmyOz, you posted as I was writing. I think you propose a sound test, but my only question is why would the Lever be that far out of position? It certainly could have been bent I suppose. I'd like to see if the Lock Pin on the Gear can be adjusted slightly.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
164,706
Messages
1,432,937
Members
85,756
Latest member
jtvx
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,863
Last edit
Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff