unsigned singal handed dial with lead spandrels mid 18th century?

[novicetimekeeper]

This one is an oddball.

Sold to me by another forum member because he knew of my interest in these clocks but it has a twist.

When he said the rivets on a couple of the spandrels had failed I thought well that's an unusual fixing, but now I find the spandrels appear to be lead, which would not hold such a fine thread, no wonder they were riveted.

They are a not great copy of the eagle and urn spandrel, I imagine mid 18th century given the detail on the chapter ring.

The dial centre has cup and ring decoration, popular in Westmorland I'm told but it is for a birdcage movement.

A curious mixrure of features. I'm not at all sure how to clean the lead, I'm guessing don't is the answer though they are dirty.



I don't usually go along the unsigned must be quaker route but could it be North oxfordshire?

 

[JTD]

As for the spandrels, I would just brush out any loose dust and grime.

If you wanted to, you could go over them very gently with 0000 steel wool which would just slightly burnish the highpoints.

Some people recommend wiping over with a cloth moistened with white spirit but I have never tried that myself.

I like the cup and ring decoration.

JTD

 

[novicetimekeeper]

As for the spandrels, I would just brush out any loose dust and grime.

If you wanted to, you could go over them very gently with 0000 steel wool which would just slightly burnish the highpoints.

Some people recommend wiping over with a cloth moistened with white spirit but I have never tried that myself.

I like the cup and ring decoration.

JTD

I do have the steel wool but I think I'd be worried about it going too far. Have you cleaned lead like that yourself?

The cup and ring looks good doesn't it? My first with that, and also with the zigzag. I don't have the book of the North Oxfordshire Quakers, but if it were from that area it would fit with the zigzag and birdcage.

 

[JTD]

Yes, I have used steel wool on lead but I meant what I said about doing it very gently. You just pass it over very lightly and of course you can stop at any time - you can't really 'go too far' unless you keep rubbing without looking. All you want is to just have a very slight burnished look, nothing shiny.

But if it worries you too much, just use a brush to get out the loose dirt and dust and leave it at that.

JTD

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes, I have used steel wool on lead but I meant what I said about doing it very gently. You just pass it over very lightly and of course you can stop at any time - you can't really 'go too far' unless you keep rubbing without looking. All you want is to just have a very slight burnished look, nothing shiny.

But if it worries you too much, just use a brush to get out the loose dirt and dust and leave it at that.


JTD

Thanks. Burnished sounds like a good look. I'll have a play on the back and see what I think.

 

[JTD]

Yes, that's a good idea, although the back may not be so tarnished.

What I call 'dead' lead can look a bit gloomy and if it's just lightly buffed you bring it back to life a bit, without it looking as if it had just been cast.

JTD

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Yes, that's a good idea, although the back may not be so tarnished.

What I call 'dead' lead can look a bit gloomy and if it's just lightly buffed you bring it back to life a bit, without it looking as if it had just been cast.

JTD

The back isn't tarnished at all but does have some oxide. It will give me a bit of a feel. I might wait for the rest until I'm back at work in September as I have some old lead there with more tarnish.

 

[jmclaugh]

It is interesting as I've never come across lead spandrels before. The cup and ring design is said to be a feature of the Lake District and the adjacent area in North Yorkshire and was also used sometimes instead of spandels. As you say the zig-zag design is associated with the North Oxfordshire Quakers who usually didn't sign their dials as it was regarded as ostentatious. Both designs could be done by someone who was not skilled enough to tackle engraving.

As to cleaning lead I've never had reason to but it appears it is very susceptable to acid vapours which are given off by being enclosed in wood and cause corrosion which is identified by white or grey residue or powder.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

It is interesting as I've never come across lead spandrels before. The cup and ring design is said to be a feature of the Lake District and the adjacent area in North Yorkshire and was also used sometimes instead of spandels. As you say the zig-zag design is associated with the North Oxfordshire Quakers who usually didn't sign their dials as it was regarded as ostentatious. Both designs could be done by someone who was not skilled enough to tackle engraving.

As to cleaning lead I've never had reason to but it appears it is very susceptable to acid vapours which are given off by being enclosed in wood and cause corrosion which is identified by white or grey residue or powder.

It's a challenge!

The spandrels are riveted on with one each end. I can't clean the dialplate without removing them and I'm a bit reluctant at the moment. Two were already off. The chapter ring has very slight silvering left and is covered in something sticky so that will have to come off. I'd like to get the evidence of brasso removed from the cup and ring decoration.

I'm a bit nervous of the spandrels, I don't want to damage them so I'll study the rivets used, they are very small brass wires I think.

I've emailed the guy who wrote the book on North Oxfordshire makers, they used hook and spike movements which would fit with the dialfeet setup.

It's a curious thing I must say and i hope to get it cleaned up properly. It will join my collection of dialplates signed by local makers and makers whose clocks I have but it is a bit of an oddball. Should look great on the wall.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

I have had a reply from Tim Marshall, he has never seen a North Oxforshire with cup and ring, the only Southern clock he has seen with cup and ring was a Sussex maker.

He has seen tin spandrels on cornish clocks, which makes sense. Did make me wonder if these might be pewter, I think tin is quite crystalline so it is likely to be an alloy if not lead.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Had a go at one of the two detached spandrels today. Old toothbrush, cream of tartar and a small bit of extra fine wire wool. You can even see the eagles now!

detergent and a soft brass wire brush have got rid of the brasso on the bits of the dialplate I can get wet. I'll have to remove the other two spandrels next.

Going the right way though.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Nick,

I wonder if these have anything to do with Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater, who made pewter dials and spandrels, amongst other things?

Regards,

Graham

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Hi Nick,

I wonder if these have anything to do with Thomas Pyke of Bridgwater, who made pewter dials and spandrels, amongst other things?

Regards,

Graham

Bridgewater would fit with the posted frame movement, might have had nice round brass posts too. It seems unlikely to be the only dial from this maker with cup and ring decoration, and the dial is probably by the maker rather than anybody else because of the simple style. The half hour markers on the chapter ring are not done very precisely, all points to clockmaker work. Obviously had access to the eagle and urn spandrels to make a mould for the castings. The one they used for the mould was quite a good one with good definition. The ones they made not so good.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Kevin has given me advice on removing and reriveting the spandrels so I'll take the remaining two off and clean everything up, next pic should show improvement

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Getting there, but the lead spandrels seem to have some red brown clay like substance that is quite stubborn, and the chapter ring has a casting fault that has given it a very pitted surface.

Going in the right direction though I think.