Unmarked vienna regulator movement identifying

MoroccanClockCollector

Registered User
Feb 7, 2021
31
0
6
21
Country
I was wondering if anyone could help me identify the make and age of it. I can't find any maker's names or stamps anywhere on the movement or clock, unfortunately. There is however a serial number on both the front and back plates - that number is 30705. and is it truely a vienna clock of is it a german clock

20210513_184742.jpg 569622-25b64f56ebc8991fce1b55548f21795e.jpg 569623-7272b4f6ed2f9a9eb99b75230aca7363.jpg 569624-9f6604afecdc93a18f2dcfcb0f28074d.jpg 569625-53c8b592c9e05a0bdf34bc30e423b503.jpg 20210513_183808.jpg 20210513_183706.jpg 20210513_183657.jpg 20210513_183634.jpg 20210513_183621.jpg
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
1621120598944.png


Hello
Can you read these letters accurately?
EWU? FWU?
The movement was produced in Villingen-Schwenningen, in my opinion before 1888. The manufacturer is not yet recognized, but these letters can be of great help.
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
8,660
732
113
Country
It would have been so helpful if you had removed the gong coil before posting the picture. That way we could at least have seen the mark. As it is, we can only guess at what you are seeing.

Also bear in mind that the maker of a gong is not necessarily a guide as to who made the movement.

JTD
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
It is correct. But this place is very good to see the clock mechanism maker. I've already seen different letters that point to the manufacturer. Such as here - I have not seen yet. It is worth taking more detailed photos of other elements.

Below:

Mueller & Schlenker
Thomas Haller
Johannes Schlenker

post-90701-0-25492600-1578257374_thumb.jpg post-90701-0-94229400-1578258664_thumb.jpg 159363766_239554477872734_347578555821842965_n.thumb.jpg.1ee5cb7ebf4b39ecc38c3b03c89e7591.jpg 158703787_121643279897943_2929965516769103855_n.thumb.jpg.8555e5a6ac21dffd6b829917d6d9b73c.jpg 159278887_3515821525196505_7105438048687104226_n.jpg
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
8,660
732
113
Country
Your photos don't enlarge and the two with the yellow squares are so small that I cannot see what you have circled. Can you provide sharp close ups of the lettering within the yellow marks?

At the moment I can't see the EWU/FWU that you mention.

JTD
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
I don't have the best photos. I only noticed this recently.

M - Mueller & Schlenker
TH - Thomas Haller

e30de5f548399f2ab9d03f8c463d.jpg s-l1600.jpg post-38332-0-24399700-1346689829_thumb.jpg 2885181c1eb0bef3.jpg
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
I have another photo, a spring mechanism. However, it is F.W.U. will be.
U - uhrenfabrik
F.W. -? I have no knowledge.

FWU.jpg
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
8,660
732
113
Country
However, it is F.W.U. will be.
U - uhrenfabrik
F.W. -? I have no knowledge.
It might be Uhrenfabrik but not necessarily.

I still can't see the FWU letters on any of your photos.

JTD
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
3,393
528
113
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
It is correct. But this place is very good to see the clock mechanism maker. I've already seen different letters that point to the manufacturer. Such as here - I have not seen yet. It is worth taking more detailed photos of other elements.

Below:

Mueller & Schlenker
Thomas Haller
Johannes Schlenker
I don't have the best photos. I only noticed this recently.

M - Mueller & Schlenker
TH - Thomas Haller
I have another photo, a spring mechanism. However, it is F.W.U. will be.
U - uhrenfabrik
F.W. -? I have no knowledge.
Yahagi,

Do you have pictures of the movements that belong to these gong brackets?

Regards.
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
I only have one on my wall.
Hence I know that M - is Mueller & Schlenker. The rest of the photos are available on the web. I do not have any clearer ones, but I can see a faint 'M' on them.
Hardly anyone looks at this element of the chime, which is why the photos are blurry.

I was looking at my archives and found the photo I showed earlier. It is also vague, I would like better, but in my opinion 95% is FWU and someone with the initials F.W. I will want to look for a producer.

Regards.

2_b.jpg M.jpg MS_End01.jpg
 

JTD

Registered User
Sep 27, 2005
8,660
732
113
Country
Hence I know that M - is Mueller & Schlenker.
Thank you for posting more photos. I understand that you are referring to the M on the gong bracket. I wonder how you established that the M refers to Müller & Schlenker? I have never seen this type of single M as one of their marks, and would be very interested to know how you came to attribute it to Müller & Schlenker.

Also, one must not forget that many manufacturers got their gongs from outside makers, so what is on the gong does not always refer to the maker of the clock.

JTD
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
3,393
528
113
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
I only have one on my wall.
Hence I know that M - is Mueller & Schlenker. The rest of the photos are available on the web. I do not have any clearer ones, but I can see a faint 'M' on them.
Hardly anyone looks at this element of the chime, which is why the photos are blurry.

I was looking at my archives and found the photo I showed earlier. It is also vague, I would like better, but in my opinion 95% is FWU and someone with the initials F.W. I will want to look for a producer.

Regards.

View attachment 654906 View attachment 654907 View attachment 654908
Thank you for the pictures.

Müller-Schlenker were known to have sold loose movements to the trade. Presumably, those movements were both marked and unmarked, with and without the "MS" trademark.

A wholesaler or cabinet maker or anyone in the trade could have fitted the "loose" movement (dial etc.) to the case and gong set.

I am not stating that your gong bracket is not from M-S, but have you considered the above possibility? I ask because if M-S were to have marked their brackets, I would assume that they would have marked them "M-S", not "M".

Regards.

EDIT: I see that JTD and I were typing at the same time.
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
Dużo treści i pytań :)
Postaram się odpowiedzieć (i mam nadzieję, że tłumacz google dobrze to przetłumaczy)
:)

O podpisie M w załączniku, inne, które mam w swoim archiwum. Zauważyłem podpis na gongu przez przypadek u znajomego, ale miał J.Sch. (Zdjęcie pokazałem wcześniej). Dopiero wtedy zacząłem patrzeć na inne. Przypomniałem sobie, że mam taki mechanizm mocujący w zegarze (14711) u siebie. Okazało się, że mam M.

Nikt nie robi dokładnych zdjęć tego przedmiotu. Kupując 14711 zdobycz problem z identyfikacją. Dziesięć wieszak był używany przez Thomasa Hallera / Frederyka Maute / Mueller & Schlenker do zegarów z wagą. Myślałem, że są identyczne. Ale tak nie jest. Te litery odróżnić. Dołączone są inne wieszaki firmy Mueller & Schlenker.

Wszyscy są „M”… Byłem też zaskoczony, że nie „M&S”, bo tego bym się spodziewał.
number.jpg do identyfikatora silnika.

17x72.jpg 19718.jpg 28761.jpg 35539.jpg 14680.jpg
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
3,393
528
113
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
Dużo treści i pytań :)
Postaram się odpowiedzieć (i mam nadzieję, że tłumacz google dobrze to przetłumaczy)
:)

O podpisie M w załączniku, inne, które mam w swoim archiwum. Zauważyłem podpis na gongu przez przypadek u znajomego, ale miał J.Sch. (Zdjęcie pokazałem wcześniej). Dopiero wtedy zacząłem patrzeć na inne. Przypomniałem sobie, że mam taki mechanizm mocujący w zegarze (14711) u siebie. Okazało się, że mam M.

Nikt nie robi dokładnych zdjęć tego przedmiotu. Kupując 14711 zdobycz problem z identyfikacją. Dziesięć wieszak był używany przez Thomasa Hallera / Frederyka Maute / Mueller & Schlenker do zegarów z wagą. Myślałem, że są identyczne. Ale tak nie jest. Te litery odróżnić. Dołączone są inne wieszaki firmy Mueller & Schlenker.

Wszyscy są „M”… Byłem też zaskoczony, że nie „M&S”, bo tego bym się spodziewał.
number.jpg do identyfikatora silnika.

View attachment 654935 View attachment 654937 View attachment 654938 View attachment 654939 View attachment 654940
GOOGLE TRANSLATION



Lots of content and questions :) I will try to answer (and I hope the google translator will translate it well) :) About M's signature in the attachment, others that I have in my archive. I noticed the signature on the gong by accident on a friend, but it had J.Sch. (I showed the photo earlier). Only then did I start looking at the others. I remembered that I had such a clamping mechanism in my clock (14711) at home. It turned out that I have M. Nobody takes exact pictures of this item. Identification problem when buying 14711 prey. The ten-hanger was used by Thomas Haller / Frederyk Maute / Mueller & Schlenker for weight clocks. I thought they were identical. But it's not like that. These letters distinguish. Other Mueller & Schlenker hangers are included. They are all "M" ... I was also surprised that not "M&S", as I would have expected. number.jpg to the engine ID.


volume_up

content_copy


share


star_border
More about this source text
Source text required for additional translation information

Send feedback
Side panels
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
(... the translator translated the wrong place. Sorry :))

About 14711 ...
I researched the topic. I have no doubt that this is M&S. 99% confidence.

The oldest M&S weighing mechanism with the signature I saw was 29255.
The earlier mechanism that I have in photo 28761 has no signature yet (in my archive).
30405 - better quality photo. The hanger is the same, the photo is weak, M.

I analyzed the changes from 14711 to 29255 (15 cases). There is a slight development, but the structure of the mechanism is the same. Please compare the changes and the similarities.
(font?)

(how does google translator manage ?? :)
greetings

14711.jpg 14711_01.jpg 28761.jpg 29255.jpg 30405.jpg 30405W.jpg
 

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
This is maybe one more photo. Thomas Haller 5901. I remembered that my friend has one. I asked for the hanger to be removed. And as you can see ..

165843205_317364319726890_5274172689135676574_n.jpg 187960734_461918034905596_8639034714493025142_n.jpg
 

new2clocks

NAWCC Member
Apr 25, 2005
3,393
528
113
Pennsylvania
Country
Region
(... the translator translated the wrong place. Sorry :))

About 14711 ...
I researched the topic. I have no doubt that this is M&S. 99% confidence.

The oldest M&S weighing mechanism with the signature I saw was 29255.
The earlier mechanism that I have in photo 28761 has no signature yet (in my archive).
30405 - better quality photo. The hanger is the same, the photo is weak, M.

I analyzed the changes from 14711 to 29255 (15 cases). There is a slight development, but the structure of the mechanism is the same. Please compare the changes and the similarities.
(font?)

(how does google translator manage ?? :)
greetings

View attachment 654943 View attachment 654944 View attachment 654945 View attachment 654946 View attachment 654947 View attachment 654948
Thank you very much for this interesting information!

Providing an M-S marked movement that utilized the same gong bracket as the unmarked M-S movements utilized certainly makes it appear that the gong bracket is a product of M-S. (I note that I can not see the gong bracket used with the marked M-S movement, but I trust what you have stated.)

Until we can find some type of documentation (trademark registration or DRP, etc.) that confirms the gong bracket was made by M-S, we can assume the bracket was made by M-S. Without such documentation, we can not be sure that the gong bracket was not made by some independent firm that also sold these same gong brackets to other clockmakers. Unfortunately, this is a difficult task.

In the June, 2009 edition of the NAWCC Clock and Watch Bulletin, Doug Stevenson wrote an in-depth article on the gongs and gong brackets of German clock makers. Most of the gongs that were registered with a trademark were noted. Only 1 gong bracket with initials (and no trademark or tradename – such as the example at hand) was noted. This was “MB” for Matthias Bäuerle. The other gong brackets with initials – Philippe Haas, LFS, for example) were part of the registered trademarks for those companies.

So, the task of identifying gong brackets with initials only (without documentation mentioned earlier) continues!

This is my opinion. I am very interested in hearing the opinion of JTD and others.

Regards.
 
Last edited:

Yahagi

Registered User
Dec 16, 2019
18
3
3
49
Country
I am also looking for such proof of linking M&S with the signature and a hanger with the letter M. That would close the topic. When I have such photographic material - I will inform you naturally.
Meanwhile, I also show 35539 (no signature, but I have no doubt that it is M&S)

In my opinion, the hangers were made by one company for several producers of mechanisms. I don't think there are DRP proprietary. They are almost identical. Perhaps they differ in dimensions. I can only measure M because I have one.
Kienzle has also used such hangers for the spring ones, but they do not have a signature. After 21,000 mechanisms, Thomas Haller already has his hanger. M&S has its own hanger of 44,000.

I am also curious about the opinions of others. It would be nice if MoroccanClockCollector
shared better photos. I'm trying to find out about the history of the FWU.


Regards.

304823.jpg 304828.jpg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
166,185
Messages
1,447,751
Members
86,721
Latest member
MarcosGraveyard
Encyclopedia Pages
1,101
Total wiki contributions
2,883
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller