Unmarked Movement Identification

[Bill Stuntz]

Jurgen: As a newbie, I've been amazed that you guys can so easily recognize typical (insert nationality here) movements or "Americanized" movements, etc. The only "foreign" movement I've touched is an Urgos, and can easily see that it's "different" from the ST124, and that the Gilbert is "different" from the Ingraham. But I have no way of knowing the "meaning" of those differences. Is there a thread somewhere that illustrates these differences and points out WHICH differences differentiate nationality vs manufacturer variations? Could you possibly start one, if not? Maybe make it a "sticky" thread to assist us newbies after it's reasonably comprehensive.

 

[Richard T.]

It isn't that simple. It's called "experience", usually in both clocks in general and repair over a period of many years. I have been involved with clocks in different ways for more than 40 years and I still think I don't know very much............. I don't think it can be condensed down to something that can be used to create instant knowledge or experts.

Best,

Richard T.

 

[soaringjoy]

Signed.
I have literally hundreds of movements in my database, mostly German.
Still, it often occurs, that not even the most reknown museum research experts
can say in an instant, is it an American made movement or an early German copy?
Is it French, or is it Lenzkirch? Talking about unmarked ones here, sure.
Often, indications can only be found, after taking a movement apart.
There have been attempts to measure French style German unmarked movements, in order
to determine the actual maker, to no further avail, I believe. And that was only concerning
one particular type of movement, like the one shown by Richard.
To add to this, if a movement is "different", it's OK. Then there's something to work with.
The problems arise, if the movements are very similar, or even the same, but bear different markings.

And here's the whipped cream for the toppings:
We're only talking spring driven mantel or wall clock movements now.
Take and add weight driven clocks, cuckoos, alarms and others and it's enough to blow your mind,
if you're "sensitive".
That is one major reason, why most serious clockies have "specialized" their points of interests on
certain clock makers or clock types.
So, all in all, it is an incredibly vast field to work on, and the beat goes on...

 

[Bill Stuntz]

I already knew that the subject is complex and that your experience is key! Are there a few "describable" things that you key in on? Is it the "style" of the movement, or is it mostly DRP#'s or medal stamps, etc? I suspect that it's all of the above. Maybe a few photos of examples - THIS movement ABSOLUTELY SCREAMS French/German/American/English style? I had hoped that just maybe you could simplify it a little, but that may be too much to hope for. I remember seeing a recent post that mentioned open/solid plates as an indicator - American being open.

 

[Richard T.]

In many cases it is the style and how the movement is made. There may also be certain design features that one has seen on clocks from a particular region/country. We are talking about unmarked movements such as the one in this post. If the movement has patent numbers or trademarks then it's another story. In most of those cases you just look up the mark or research the patent. Of course, one must have a rather comprehensive clock library to be able to do that.

There may be a way to simplify it somewhat but as Jurgen posted above, most real experts (of which I do not claim to be) have narrowed their area of interest to a specific type or specific maker and/or time period. This allows them to become intimately familiar with their subject and can often identify movements or makers without too much trouble.

There may be a bit more on this subject later. Something like this reaquires a bit of thought and organization.

Best,

Richard

 

[harold bain]

Bill, there was a lot of copying going on in the 1800's that makes recognizing clocks a matter of looking at a lot of small things to tell the difference, both between makers and between countries of origin. Those of us who repair clocks for a living get to see, up close and personal, a lot more clocks than the average hobbyist has access to. But this message board is the best place to learn by following the threads (I know you are doing this). There isn't anyone on here who isn't learning as well as teaching.

 

[David S]

As relatively new to old clocks, I am amazed how many thousands of variations there are, and although I have only serviced about 30 clocks so far, I will post one and no one has seen it before. I am not a collector, I just want to help people out that would like to get their old clock to work. So it is important to try and learn the various principles that various clock makers have used in order to get them working again. I am with Bill it would be interesting to see some sort of "directional" information regarding maker and age.

David

 

[Bill Stuntz]

There may be a bit more on this subject later. Something like this requires a bit of thought and organization.

That's why I made this suggestion:

Could you possibly start one, if not? Maybe make it a "sticky" thread to assist us newbies after it's reasonably comprehensive.

 

[harold bain]

Last weekend I purchased Tom Spittler's Second edition of Clockmakers and Watchmakers of America. I have the first edition as well. This book lists over 36,400 makers. Assuming each maker may have had their little "tells" to help identify their clocks and watches, how long of a thread would you propose to cover this (for American clocks only)? I'm sure there would be an even larger group of European makers. And different models of clocks, likely into the hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding exactly what you are proposing. Bill, can you outline what makes the Ingraham movement you have unique? What differences there are between it and the Seth Thomas you have? Similarities? These two movements are obviously dissimilar and I'm sure you could tell the difference, lacking any trademark stamps, since you have first hand experience with them. But maybe a similar Sessions to your Ingraham might be more difficult. Now consider how many different movements each maker used over the years, and how many small changes and large changes to the basic design there may have been. This is where books like Tran Duy Ly's series on American clocks along with quite a few other books earn their keep with movement identification help, as well as model identification. Most of us rely on these books and others when confronted with something we haven't seen before. And even then, we still run into clocks and movements not documented anywhere we can find it, and have to give a "best guess" based on our experience.

 

[Bill Stuntz]

I am by no means intending/expecting anything THAT detailed. I'm basically looking for the general principles. To paraphrase myself: I try to remember the principles and don't even try to memorize the little details. Until I saw that post a week or so ago, I didn't realize that the 3 movements I have with open plates pointed toward "American" and the Urgos closed plates indicated "European." I HAD noticed, and KNEW the nationalities, but hadn't made the connection. The German cuckoo with open plates may have KEPT me from making that connection. Ingraham vs Gilbert - both count wheel, different details, but same principles except for the Ingraham's passing strike. Both American, and similar "feel" to the movements. ST124 vs Urgos - both rack & snail, mostly same principles, but even MORE different from each other in the details than the American T&S movements are from each other. Different "feel" to the movements, open/closed plates, weight/spring driven, chime mechanisms and strike trigger mechanisms are very different. Which of these differences are indicative of nationality vs "normal" design variations from maker to maker? I KNOW I ask more questions than most others here, and I don't know enough yet to know WHERE I'd like to specialize. I KNOW I'm not at at all interested in some football team logo clock with a quartz movement - which seems to be about all I've been able to find in thrift stores & garage sales around here. I'm hoping that I'll stumble across something GOOD, and KNOW what I'm looking at, and be able to afford it. With YOUR help, I'm getting there.

Jurgen pm'd me this link, https://mb.nawcc.org/showwiki.php?title=Overview:_European_Factory_Clock_Movements - which is actually pretty close to what I had in mind.

 

[Richard T.]

There are quite a few American movements that have solid plates so open plates does not always point to American. I would say the majority of American movements are marked as such so there shouldn't be a problem with identification. Identification of differences will come by studying, examining movements and just plain hard work. I get the impression that you want to be an expert immediately and that's not going to happen.

There are also German made movements that have open or cut out plates and on and on.....

There are many American clocks that have a passing strike. That's not something unique to Ingraham. There are clock movements made by other countries that have passing strikes and not on the half hour either but on the hour.

Below are photos of two American movement plates.

Regards,

Richard T.

 

[harold bain]

I guess the problem with generalizing is that any rule you make will have lots of exceptions, like solid plates/cutout plates. Certainly many American movements had cutout plates, but many didn't. And cutout plates were made by British, German, Japanese, Portuguese, Canadian and Chinese makers. It was a cost saving effort to use less brass. It's just not that simple, giving rules to identify clocks by.

 

[Willie X]

I agree with others. I've repaired 10s of thousands of clocks and usually averaged about 50 clocks in my shop for repair at any one time. I've only run across two pairs of identical clock. 100s that are close, usually modern high production stuff, but when you look closely there is always something different. Simply to many categories to categorize.

Willie X

 

[eskmill]

There is an orderly and systematic system that helps to identify various clock movements. It is a scheme developed I believe, by Rudolf Flume in Germany.

He catalogs movements first based on function: Alarm movements one-day and 8 day separately, then round or square, next with balance wheel or pendulum.

Further separations are again based on function, table clocks, striking clocks, wall clocks, and house or standing clocks each subdivided by spring or weight driven, round or rectangular shape, strike or time only, chime, countwheel strike control or rack and snail etc.

Further identification is based on measurements of the movement plates and the shape of the pendulum leader and the strike count rack shape and number of teeth on the rack; finally arriving at the maker's name and model number.

The system is orderly and based on visual recognition and it works well.

 

[soaringjoy]

...and so the beat goes on.

Yes, indeed, my "new" European Factory Clock Movements encyclopedia entry is very, very simplified.
What I have tried to point out were general "types" of movements, not primarily the nationality.

The Americans started out with mass-production of clock movements on production lines and the
rest of world eventually followed these procedures - all countries and all makers did.
The makers that continued to produce very massive and expensive movements i.e. in the "French"
style, all went down and bankrupt by the 1930s. English, French and German makers, it didn't make
a big difference.
So, actually, the American style of movement production was the largest revolution in the clock industry,
like it or not.

Now, talking "Amerikaner Werke", aka American style movements, it's all about production costs savings,
in addition to reliability and affordability.
It's not a really a matter of solid or cut-out plates -both were used, although the latter was most common.
For example, some German mantel clock movements had solid plates, to impost a massive movement.
But, in any way, they were "Amerikaner Werke" with all the other "ingredients" that mattered.

BTW, it really took me quite a long timeto learn (and comprehend) this.

Talking German clocks alone, I can only suggest reading this review of the new "Lexikon":

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?86884-Review-Lexikon-Der-Deutschen-Uhrenindustrie-1850-1980

Our late MB member Zepernick made his point in his own, unachieved, humorous way.

Just for fun, there are ca. German 2360 firms listed and some 4500 German trademarks and tradenames
in the "Lexikon", merely covering a period of industrially made clocks from 1850 - 1980.

Last not least, the Flume movement listings are most invaluable for ID searches, but they only do coverage
to the tip of the iceberg.

That said, all we can do right here on the MB is some kind of an all-round, general coverage.
Just like scratching the surface, I guess.