Unmarked Fusee with some sort of Auxiliary on the Balance?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Apr 19, 2017.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
  2. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    Poole's auxiliary constrains the outward movement of the balance rim in cold, by the smaller screw bearing on the closed end of the rim. Because of its position it was very hard to adjust precisely. Yours bridges the cut and appears to constrain the cut end of the rim; if the screw in the "free" end is threaded in the rim it will have the effect of limiting the inward movement of the rim in heat, whereas if it's free to move in the rim and threaded in the affix itself, it will limit the outward movement in cold. Can you tell whether that screw is actually threaded in the affix or just resting on it?

    Alternatively this could just be a means of locking the rim during adjustment of the screws.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    #3 Omexa, Apr 19, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    View attachment 340692 Hi Graham, I will let you know. Maybe this will help, the Arrow points to what looks like Steel; Brass Screw on the outside of Balance Rim and Steel on the inside of the Balance Rim. Regards Ray
     
  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    I see what you mean, most odd. There doesn't seem to be any wire or fine spring across the cut similar to the Molyneaux pattern. Whatever its function, it's most unusual to see anything like this in an ordinary lever pocket watch.

    I think that other pin you highlighted is a banking pin. The matching one could be planted on the same side of the lever but inboard of the pivot.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

    Aug 5, 2015
    334
    4
    18
    Semi-retired designer & printer
    Redruth, Cornwall, UK
    Country Flag:
    This looks decidedly early to me: probably before 1830, at least. Quite apart from the auxiliary (a term which I must confess was new to me), the balance is a very advanced pattern for this period. Another treasure, Ray!

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    #6 Omexa, Apr 19, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
    Thanks Oliver, it is like me considered "Strange"; I think that it was made in Liverpool and the lack of a Makers Name makes me wonder if it was a "One-off Special"? I did not think that it was as early as you suppose, but it has an early look about it. I found a Chronometer by Rich Jolly with a similar Balance Cock from c1808. Regards Ray
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Oliver,

    Chapter XI from Gould's "The Marine Chronometer" deals with compensated balances at some length. I agree that it could be before 1830; this pattern of screwed balance, developed by the Penningtons, was in use by the turn of the century or soon after, and in fact Ray's balance is almost identical to Pennington's type "L", which is known from examples dating from 1814 onwards.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

    Jan 5, 2017
    74
    1
    8
    Country Flag:
    An interesting movement. I'd agree that its origins are quite early on for a lever but I'm not convinced that that is the original balance. The rim has certainly been played about with, with those various timing washers and the two plain pins fitted through what are presumaly tapped holes.
    My feeling is that someone has added that compensation to the balance at some time later as a bit of an experiment.
     
  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Seth,

    I think that makes sense, and the two plain pins could have replaced normal screws to compensate in part for the extra weight of the affixes. Whoever did it presumably knew about Pennington balances.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi, I think that too much emphasis is being placed on "two Plain Pins" rather than the "Balance Auxiliary parts". Screws or pins, not really important. The pins could have easily been Screws. Whoever has worked on this Balance obviously knew what they were doing and it may have been the original Maker or a later edition, as lots of movements were converted around this time; I have a few myself. I feel that it was possibly a Watchmaker or the Original Maker that worked on the Balance, as they would have access to Balance Screw Washers and the ability and the tools and Machinery to make the "Auxiliary" parts for the Balance. What does interest me is something that so far has not been mentioned; who made the movement and where; I think it is a Liverpool movement? Why no Makers Name on what looks to be an advanced movement. We may never know. It also will be interesting to know what sort of escapement it has? Massey or what? Regards Ray
     
  11. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    Yes, that's pretty certain, from the regulator scale, the "piecrust" edge and the floral engraving on the cock table. As it's a Liverpool piece, there's a fair chance that the frame maker has stamped the pillar plate, so that's worth a look. The "Patent" and "Detach'd" engravings are often associated with Massey escapements, and there just might be a stamp under the cock foot for EM himself.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  12. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi, I have searched the net and I am almost going to admit defeat, the only Pocket Watches and movements that I have found are associated with Pennington: Pennington's type "L" Balance. I have not found a movement that looks like this movement that has a plain Balance; I am beginning to think that this is a "One Off" movement. Help! Regards Ray
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    Yes, I think that's highly likely. It might even have been modified by one of Pennington's workmen on his own account.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi, the movement is coming from Gonzalo in Buenos Aires I wonder if Pennington had a Dealer there?
    Regards Ray
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
  16. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

    Sep 22, 2015
    410
    3
    18
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray - just knew you would not give up ...

    So I worked out the article you found was the Stewart article on Pennington in AH vol 34 no 3. That led me to check David Penney's site. Not sure if you have seen this from his archive

    http://www.antiquewatchstore.com/archive/1682-pennington-london-no-106-483.html

    which has this
    'Robert Pennington, associated with Thomas Mudge junior in the manufacture of chronometers to his father's pattern, who later concentrated on the manufacture of spring-detent chronometers. Succeeded by his son Robert, the Pennington family were one of the leading London manufacturers of both pocket and box chronometers in the first half of the 19th century and devised, among other improvements, the screw adjusted balance that became the standard compensation balance used worldwide. NB: Despite what some authors and many auction houses continue to state, the 'L' portion of this balance (as with the earlier 'double T' balance) has nothing to do with middle temperature error and does not supply an auxiliary action. Rather, it was Pennington's method of protecting the free end of the bimetallic rim when the screws were either adjusted or moved - a tricky job with a screwdriver, especially at this early period when such balances were not well known.

    there is also a nice photograph here

    http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2016/genius-thomas-tompion-l16056/lot.56.html

    John
     
  17. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    #17 Omexa, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    Thanks John, some more information and the lovely photos at Sotherbys. Now I will just have to wait until it arrives to have a look at the escapement. From Graham:
    All in all a very interesting movement that may have been possibly a prototype? (I hope) Regards Ray
     
  18. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    I'd argue with the description of the screw "b" as a quarter screw and the illustration doesn't make it clear how that screw acts. Your version of that screw appears to bear on the affix, whereas the Pennington one seems to be threaded in it. Whether it's really just a protection against "rough handling" may be cleared up when you get the watch in hand.

    I can see that one of the brass screws holding the affix to the rim has a poorly formed slot, which suggests that this was indeed a later modification.

    [Edit]: John's finding in David Penney's website seems to clear up the question of the function of this affix, but it will still be interesting to see exactly how your balance is constructed.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    #19 Omexa, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017
    View attachment 341218 Hi, now I am confused, if the Screw (b) is Threaded in the Rim and the inner part of the Thread is threaded into (a) (1&2). wouldn't that make the Balance a Solid and not a cut Balance? In photo (1 & 2) there is clearly a separation between 1 and 2 (Blue Numbers) part of Balance Rim. Regards Ray View attachment 341217
     
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    If you look carefully at the images in John's Sothebys link, you'll see that the screw is threaded in the affix and the rim has a fairly large clearance hole allowing it to move freely without touching the screw. I agree, the action is clearer in the photo of the "YCC" balance. Thinking about it, the balance rim would have to move outwards an unfeasibly long way to be constrained by the head of that screw if it was intended to be any sort of middle temperature auxiliary, so it clearly didn't have that function.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  21. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User

    Sep 22, 2015
    410
    3
    18
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Ray / Graham - I have just been looking at Mercer's AH Spring 1981 paper (The Penningtons and their balances), which appears to be the best account of the various types.

    The 4 types described are:
    1. YCC type - which has a three armed plain balance with semi circular arcs fixed outside - this is the type in Rays photograph
    2. Double T type - two armed balance with bimetallic rims, with the arms carrying a brass arc to form the 'T' shape
    3. Double L type - the arm of the balance has a curved piece at each end forming an " L " shape.
    4. Screw type - forerunner of the modern watch balance, having quarter screws for timing, and intermediate screws for compensating.
    So I am assuming that Ray's example is (at least, based upon) the double 'L' type

    I attach copies of Mercer's diagrams

    John
     
  22. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John/Ray,

    They're so close as makes no difference, unless Ray's investigations reveal some fundamental difference in the way his acts, so the remaining questions are still "who fitted it to an ordinary pocket watch, and why when it's usually only found on chronometers"?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    I sent a message about post and Gonzalo in Buenos Aires assures me it will be posted with Tracking Today. I have never had post from Buenos Aires before and I hope that it does not take too long. Things get to Australia from overseas in about a week and the depot in Sydney then sends it by road to Darwin; at times I am sure that they send stuff by Camel Train which supposedly stopped in 1925; I am sure that it has been revived especially for me. http://vrroom.naa.gov.au/print/?ID=19137 Regards Ray
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi, the movement finally arrived after a Month; Phew!!! It has an unhooked Fusee Chain (will fix that) and I am really pleased that it has a Massey II escapement. Regards Ray View attachment 344643 View attachment 344644
     
  25. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

    Aug 5, 2015
    334
    4
    18
    Semi-retired designer & printer
    Redruth, Cornwall, UK
    Country Flag:
    Delighted to hear that this movement has arrived and has turned out to have so many points of interest. it begins to look as if the balance is original to the movement, does it not?

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    Is there a stamp under the cock foot or on the pillar plate?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. SKennedy

    SKennedy Registered User

    Jan 5, 2017
    74
    1
    8
    Country Flag:
    Agree with Oliver, that does look better in your new photos, though I still don't like the crude pins stuck in the rim!

    So, are the 'adjusting' screws at the end of the balance rims screwed into the rim or the attached blocks?

    Also, are both banking pins on the same side of the lever, one close to the balance and the other towards the edge of the plate? That pin you arrowed in the picture on the first post appears to not be there now?
     
  28. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Seth,

    If as I suspect those screws are free in the rims and threaded into the blocks, the purpose of those affixes will be clear, and they aren't anything to do with compensation for middle temperature error, (as in John's post #16).

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  29. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi SKennedy,
    The Pin is shown in new photo and the Banking Pins are both on the same side of the Lever. Regards Ray View attachment 344692
     
  30. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi Graham, the light in the Photo Area (The Kitchen) is not very good at night; I will look at the Balance when I can go on to the Balcony where the light is much better. I am pretty sure it is the Double L type - the arm of the balance has a curved piece at each end forming an " L " shape. I am wary of turning Screws on a Balance unless really needed; In early times I thought I will just see what happens if I give it a turn; the Head of the Screw twisted off with not much force, Disaster!!!! Regards Ray
     
  31. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    No need to do this, just see whether the free end of the rim will move slightly relative to the block.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  32. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi Graham, the Outer edge moves freely; there is nothing stamped under the Balance Cock. Regards Ray
     
  33. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    7,202
    22
    38
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Ray,

    Thanks for confirming this. I believe that these affixes are solely for stabilising the balance rim when adjustments are being made to the timing or temperature screws by a watchmaker.

    A shame that nothing is stamped under the balance cock, but it was nice to hope. Anything on the pillar plate?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  34. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    Hi Graham,
    I will have a look at a later time when I service and clean it. Regards Ray
     
  35. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
    Staff Member Donor Sponsor NAWCC Member

    Aug 24, 2000
    77,849
    396
    146
    Male
    retired SW dev
    Boston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    A Barraud just sold this past weekend with the description stating that the affix was a middle temperature error correction. (I was not able to buy it.)

    I am sure that David Penney has handled enough of these to be quite certain of the action.

    I used to think these might have had the intent of managing centrifugal error, but the clearance seems to be way too large for that also. Of course, centrifugal error was just a theory in 1800 so Pennington could have thought it was needed for that. I think one might be able to visualize centrifugal error today with very high speed cinema and a lot of magnification. It can also be calculated from careful measurement of the elements and arc of the balance.
     
  36. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

    Feb 28, 2010
    3,362
    5
    38
    #36 Omexa, May 24, 2017
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
Loading...
Similar Threads - Unmarked Fusee sort Forum Date
An unmarked English fusee European & Other Pocket Watches Jul 8, 2017
Unmarked pocket watch European & Other Pocket Watches Jan 9, 2017
please help identify this unmarked pocket watch European & Other Pocket Watches Oct 31, 2016
Unmarked pocket watch European & Other Pocket Watches Jun 17, 2016
HELP Identifying a Pocket Watch - Unmarked? European & Other Pocket Watches Jan 22, 2016

Share This Page