Ulysse Nardine Deck Watch

Discussion in 'Chronometers' started by River rat, Oct 25, 2019.

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  1. River rat

    River rat Registered User
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    Hope I did OK on this. Did a search and saw one in better shape for double the price so I think I did OK. If the German issued marks legit it will go with my military timepiece collection. It will need a service and looks like a few screws are missing. Those are easy to replace. Did I do OK ?

    s-l1600a.jpg s-l1600b.jpg s-l1600f.jpg s-l1600c.jpg
     
  2. River rat

    River rat Registered User
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  3. River rat

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    Here is this chronometer from a booklet on a exhibit they had years ago at the NAWCC museum.

    IMG_0273.JPG
     
  4. River rat

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    Any one here had any thing to do with the NAWCC museum military exhibit years ago with info on this deck watch ?
     
  5. River rat

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    Sent a email to the NAWCC since it was on exhibit there years ago maybe they can tell me more. Seems like this one was sold a few time since 2017 once at auction then from a dealer then to me on Ebay. Dam nobody holds on to there stuff any more.
     
  6. Tom McIntyre

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    Thanks for the link to the Bricker auction. All of those items were his (or his father's). He and I had traded a few pieces over the years.

    What is the diameter? Is it pocket size? That plate layout is also seen on the Nardin Marine chronometers (more or less).

    In the heyday of the chapter Society of Military Horologists Bricker's watches were exhibited at the museum in Columbia and also at the U. S. Navy facilities in Newport R.I.

    Konrad Knirim used a lot of the information for his series of books on military timepieces.
     
  7. River rat

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    #7 River rat, Oct 26, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
    I can tell you more about it when I receive it just bought it of eBay the other day. Over at the mwr forum some one that is knowledgeable on German military clocks and watches has a funny feeling about the issue marks. But I think it was in Bricker family a while before fake issue marks plus with Ulysse Nardin name no need to fake marks. What do you think of the issue marks Tom.
     
  8. Tom McIntyre

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    Cmdr. Bricker was not a careful collector, so I would not be too surprised if it had been "improved."

    For my collecting interests the Nardin name and the size are more important than the mark.
     
  9. tick talk

    tick talk Registered User

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    I'm not expert to comment on the Reichsadler but, if it was made for the Kriegsmarine, would you not expected the state-of-wind indication to read "Auf/Ab"?
     
  10. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    My thought is that it is a standard Nardin product and the markings are added by the purchaser or, possibly, at their direction. You might se the same piece with a Pheon.
     
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  11. River rat

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    Got this info from Ulysse Nardin this morning about all they can tell me was wishing they could tell what country imported it.
    Movement number


    Calibre

    Production

    03044

    M 70 m/m

    1930
     
  12. Tom McIntyre

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    The 1930 date may be significant. Hitler and the Kriegsmarine were a few years later than 1930 in 1933 and 1935. The Weimar Republic Reichsmarine did not use the symbol.

    It is smaller than the Nardin Chronometer as well as not as deep. It is still a really interesting artifact. You might try to contact Knirim for his opinion or perhaps someone else here is familiar with the piece and/or its family.
     
  13. River rat

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    I posted it over at the MWR forum I know Knirim visits it once in a while hoping he sees it and ads what he thinks.
     
  14. River rat

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    #14 River rat, Oct 28, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    Found another one of these for sale on the net they had some good info on the movement.
    Three quarter plate gilt movement with Earnshaw's spring detent escarpment, compensated cut bi-metallic balance with blue steel spring regulator, fully jeweled to the center arbor.

    With that detent should it been corked for shipment ? It is a little different than a full size fusee chronometer hope it comes in working order. Could a watchmaker who services vintage wristwatches and pocket watches work on this there is one local or should I send to a specialist on these for a service due to the detent and these are a little different than a pocket watch he does work on fusee pocket watches so he mite be able to handle this..
     
  15. Tom McIntyre

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    Very few local watchmakers are qualified to work on detent chronometers. Someone who is skilled at normal watch work and is careful can probably disassemble and clean such a piece, but would be in difficulty if the detent itself needed work.. I am not speaking as an authority, just my personal view.
     
  16. River rat

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    #16 River rat, Oct 29, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2019
    Thinking of sending to the watchmaker who worked on my Hamilton Model 21. I only sent him the movement in the brass tub on that one. He does do refinish the wooden boxes and clean up the brass since in this case I will need to send the whole thing and there are a few screws missing like one on the serial number plaque on the wooden box and two that secure the tub to the wooden box that from photo's been missing since William Bricker owned it get those put in. And maybe see if the Kriegsmarine mark can be removed if I can't find any proof there legit so far they seem fake. Or just movement service and those screws replaced. I know on vintage watches it ruined the value if you take the patina off. Or just sent him a email on just the movement service cost. What option would you do just movement service and leave box alone.
     
  17. River rat

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    Just heard back from the watchmaker. He said these are rare and he has worked on similar one's but there are risk to work on if any mistakes during service the parts would have to be hand made or not be able to be remade especially the detent. And they are sort of rare as the first pocket chronometer and mite be better left alone and only run it once in a while and not on a full wind and enjoy it like a museum piece and not as a daily timepiece I kind of knew that when I bought it. And that 1930 date he said the Kriegsmarine mark could of been put on in later years when it was serviced by the German Navy so it could be real. And it won't be cheap for a service he did give me a quote.
     
  18. Tom McIntyre

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    If it were mine, I would not remove the mark. It is currently part of its history and even if it is an attempt to hype it by some later player, that is still part of it.
     
  19. River rat

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    Tom I am sort of with you leaving it as is part of it's history. Mite not service it if it's in running condition since even with some one who knows how to work on them could do a mistake and it mite not get back into running condition sounds like a gamble to service one of these. And admire it for what it is a early pocket watch chronometer for the collection. I got to think hard on servicing it.
     
  20. River rat

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    Well received it today. Was running when I open the box all the way from New York City. I am happy mite just leave it as is. It is in running condition. Like it a little used looking shows it been used as intended for Navigation. I got a question since this has a detent is this a step above a deck pocket watch and considered a real chronometer ?

    DSC_0090.JPG DSC_0091.JPG DSC_0092.JPG DSC_0094.JPG DSC_0093.JPG DSC_0096.JPG
     
  21. River rat

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    #21 River rat, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    On the movement on the regulator the A and the R what fast and slow for adjustment with ones witch ?
     
  22. Tom McIntyre

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    A is for Arret = fast
    R is for Retard = slow.

    This piece was almost certainly intended for near shore navigation. At the time it was made it would have a lever rather than a spring detent if it was intended for torpedo boat use.

    The box is a bit strange looking with a few primitive touches as well as the appearance of a real (but short) marine chronometer box. Possibly the Russians remade the box.

    If you decide you do not want it, I am sure it can find a home.
     
  23. River rat

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    #23 River rat, Oct 31, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
    Tom here is a mint one for sale same hardware and box so original except for three screw one on the brass plaque and two small ones to secure the brass tub . The regulator is all the way on fast that good I mite be able to get it set to great time it's running a little fast so I mite be able to get it regulated better or it mite settle down.
    A Mahogany Cased Deck Watch Chronometer By Ulysse Nardin, C.1937. | 537688 | Sellingantiques.co.uk

    The green felt is missing on the bottom of box any one know were I can get some and the proper glue to put it on. Only thing I think I will do to the box.
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

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    Go to your local pool hall and ask for some scrap billiard cloth. It works a lot better than felt. You can get the green felt at the fabric department of Walmart.

    I was concerned about the funky mounting of the winding key but I guess two examples make a standard.
     
  25. River rat

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    Here is a thread I did over at the MWR forum and Konrad Knirim replied still some hope it's a legit issue mark. You can see some of the flack I got from some.
    Kriegsmarine Ulysse deck watch
     
  26. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Tom,

    Or more commonly translated as 'Avance'. . .

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  27. Tom McIntyre

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    Here is the Waltham version that I owned until October 20th. It sold for $475.
    39624_01.jpg
     
  28. River rat

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    They did the same in Sextant wooden boxes were they had a slot for the key in the wooden box.
    fwsJpgW.jpg
     
  29. zedric

    zedric Registered User

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    Particularly as "arrêt" means "stop" in French, while "avance" means "advance", ie go faster in this instance..
     
  30. Tom McIntyre

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  31. River rat

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    I took ma few photo's of the movement today looks in great shape

    DSC_0104.JPG DSC_0102.JPG DSC_0107.JPG DSC_0105.JPG
     
  32. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi River rat,

    I hate to say this, but that escape wheel looks uncommonly like a club tooth lever variety, which is quite unlike a detent escape wheel, and next to it I think I can see a pallet jewel peeping out, just next to a lever pivot cock. I'm afraid I can't see any sign of a detent, (pivoted or spring), in there either.

    The booklet you posted refers to it as a 'chronograph', which it clearly isn't, but apart from the auctioneer's description I can see no reference to it being a 'chronometer' in the sense usually understood for this type of watch.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  33. River rat

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    #33 River rat, Nov 1, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2019
    Your right that other one I posted a link to you can see it and then look at mine and it's missing on mine. I wonder if I should try to return it due to that. But sort of the history if the story is true the Russian Navy had it they could of what we call in the military jury rig it to work. It does run for 56 hours still I wonder what work was done to it with out a few parts and still work OK ? The escapement I heard it is tricky to work on I can see the Russians screwing it up. If that story is true.
     
  34. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi River rat,

    This movement looks as though it was originally designed to have either a lever or detent escapement, because the lever cock, (arrowed), appears to be finished to the same high standard as the rest of the movement, including the gilding, and the screw next to it, (which I've hidden with the arrow), is where the detent could be fitted, probably there to avoid having an empty screw hole. The escape wheel also looks very well made, so I think it's probably all original as you have it now, and a very high quality watch, but clearly wrongly described by the auctioneer. It doesn't look at all jury rigged!

    DSC_0104_edit.jpg

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  35. Tom McIntyre

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    The ability to change the escapement was a key feature of both Nardin and Ditisheim work. In both cases they felt the lever was better for small craft usage. In my opinion, there is no real difference in value between them. Ditisheim sold some with both platforms to hold whichever escapement was needed for the particular task at hand when outfitting the ship. If I recall correctly there was one of those in the Time Museum sale, but I may have seen it somewhere else.
     
  36. River rat

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    Since it has a lever instead of a detent would that make it more easy to service. So the local guy who dose wristwatches and pocket watches can service it he has did a repair on my Waltham deck watch once.
     
  37. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi River rat,

    Yes, I should think he'd be quite comfortable with this as a lever, as long as his work is to a high enough standard.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  38. River rat

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    #38 River rat, Nov 2, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2019
    Thanks Graham I hate putting stuff in the mail Montana were I live the watchmaker I use for certain things in Bozeman a 40 mile drive and my clockmaker in Billing a 2 hour drive so chronometers fusse type and chronographs get sent in the mail most of the time. Have not lost one yet but that day mite come. So if it can be done sort of local I try it. Did send for a quote from one local and one for the mail both said that can do it. Now I got to figure who gets the job mite be local I will have him see it in person did send photo's in a email some times after they look at it they could change there mind due to size his ultrasonic cleaning baskets are a certain size were one deck watch a Lemania Italian Navy deck watch was to large to fit in the baskets for some of the parts it was larger than your normal deck watch so off to the mail it went.
     
  39. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi River rat,

    Always best if it's at all possible.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  40. River rat

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    Well replaced the felt on the bottom of the box today. Went to Michaels craft store they had this 9x12 green felt with peal off paper with adhesive just measure the box mark the paper under the felt cut pull paper off felt put on box done. 9x12 good for about any inner box or deck watch box. Only a $1.25 a cheap fix.
     
  41. River rat

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    Any chance this movement has geneva stop-work only takes 5-7 winds to fully wind it and it's a 56 hour movement and it will run for 56 hours. I have a German U-Boat clock with a Kieninger & Obergfell movement with geneva stop works were it don't take much to wind it that runs for about 7 days not like my Chelsea ships clocks that take a lot of winding..
     
  42. Tom McIntyre

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    You can usually tell if a piece has stop works because the winding ends suddenly. You can feel the Geneva come up against its stop.

    The number of turns depends on the gear ratios in the train needed to run for the specified period and the strength of the spring needed to deliver sufficient for for the escapement to keep the balance moving. If you count the train, you can determine how many times the main wheel needs to rotate to give the run time.
     
  43. gmorse

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    Hi River rat,

    If you count the centre arbor pinion and the teeth on the barrel, you can see how many hours it runs on one turn of the barrel. For instance, if the barrel is 90 and the pinion is 12, it comes out at 7.5 hours, so 4 turns give 30 hours, 5 give 37.5 and 6 give 45. If it does have Geneva stopwork, the Maltese cross wheel with 5 slots will allow 4 turns, with 6 slots will allow 5, and so on up.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  44. River rat

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  45. River rat

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    One thing I noticed when you wind it from a dead stop you got to give it a little twist to get it going like a ship’s chronometer. But runs strong and keeps great time and runs for three days. I am going to have a watchmaker check it out next month to see if it needs a service. But is that normal for a deck watch to start it like a marine chronometer with a slight twist of the movement to get it going.
     
  46. Tom McIntyre

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    Lever escapements should start spontaneously if they are in good order. However, it only takes a bit of mess to get in the way of that behavior.

    I do not really know but I think it would be possible to adjust the lock position of the lever so that it would not start spontaneously and thus would behave more like a chronometer. The lack of auto starting on a chronometer is considered an advantage.
     

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