Ulysse Nardin boxed

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by michael-35, Feb 21, 2019.

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  1. michael-35

    michael-35 Registered User

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    #1 michael-35, Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 21, 2019
    I'd ask if this balance has something special or a particular name. The watch is an Ulysse Nardin for the english army and placed inside a wooden box.

    Thanks all.

    IMG_0037.JPG IMG_0041.JPG IMG_0043.JPG
     
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  2. Warwian

    Warwian Registered User

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    Yes, it has a Guillaume balance wheel.
     
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  3. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    Warwian has it right. Guillaume was the name f the alloy used in place of regular steel, named for its inventor, Guillaume. This balance has better compensation performance than regular steel in bimetallic balances.

    It has also been called an "Integral Balance" or Anibel. It is a sign of a high grade watch.

    The watch case has been modified to make it unpleasant to carry in a pocket to make it less tempting to steal for personal use.
     
  4. michael-35

    michael-35 Registered User

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    Thank you for the suggestions. I've though too about Guillaume due the type of cut on the balance (even if there aren't the classical winged arms).
    Anyway another person talked my about the possibilty of Elinvar?
     
  5. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Elinvar is another of Guillaume's inventions which is used for springs, not balances. The name is from elastic invariant with the meaning that the elasticity of the spring was independent of temperature. i.e. did not vary with temperature changes.
     
  6. michael-35

    michael-35 Registered User

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    Thank you. If I'm right the Elinvar hairspring tend to white, while that one is blued, right?
     
  7. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    You would not use an Elinvar hairspring with a guillaume balance. The balance requires the thermal variance of the spring to work correctly. They are two different approaches to the same problem.
     
  8. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    I would be interested what it is that draws you to the conclusion that it is a UK Army watch. More likely to be a Royal Navy Chronometer Watch (HS2) I would have thought I have Ser No 120100 which is definitely ex RN.
     
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  9. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    #9 Keith R..., Feb 21, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2019
    Dr. Jon, we had an old watch like that in a wooden box for the quarter master on
    board our Navy ship. Of course it looked more 1900'.

    I wrote this before lunch up top and it remained in draft until now.

    DaveyG speaks for the UK Navy and me USN (USS Paul DE 1080). Our ships watch
    looked to have several sweep hands. Not one of great importance like DaveyG, but
    they used it with the quartermaster.

    I did notice the box lacked official logo though.

    Keith R...
     
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  10. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    The sad passing of Keith's Ship; 28 August 2002 Aliaga Turkey The former USS Paul being prepared to be dragged onto the beach for scrapping and before in action. Regards Ray

    1.jpg USS_Paul_(FF-1080).jpg
     
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  11. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    The photo of 1080 Ray put up, is our ship getting ready to refuel at sea.
    I was a signalman (Morse code, flashing light) and I was always stationed
    top side, up on the flying bridge above the pilot house. The guys in life
    jackets are getting ready to receive the fuel line from the oil tanker. If
    we were doing it with the carrier, we would be farther away, as the carrier
    deck could cause problems if the ship rolled.

    Thanks to Ray for finding my old home. I was on two med cruises and
    one North Atl. cruise in the Arctic. I pulled a good bit of my off time in
    the UK. Back then my beard looked like Ray's and I'd have to step inside
    the pilot house to thaw the ice from my beard in the area above the Arctic
    circle. I was in 40' seas on that old tin can.

    Keith R...
     
  12. michael-35

    michael-35 Registered User

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    Hi, on the caseback there is the broad arrow and the "HS 2" indication.

    IMG_0036.JPG
     
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  13. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    As I surmised therefore, this is an ex Royal Navy Chronometer Watch of WW2 vintage. There were several grades of timepiece managed by the Royal Navy's Hydrographic Service ranging from HS1 which was a Marine Chronometer with Spring Detent escapement to HS11 which was a standard issue wrist watch. HS2 standard watches were generally used for navigation purposes on smaller vessels. If you make contact with the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London they may be able to give you some information about the allocations of your watch IF they still have the Log Card retained in their archive. They were unable to give me any information about my UN but I have had some about my V & C and Hamilton.
     
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  14. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    #14 Leigh Callaway, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
    The British National Maritime Museum contains a number of these UN chronometer watches. It describes the box for sn 28021: “The box contains a brass drum mounting in the base, shaped to the form of the watch, with a red velvet-covered cork base inside. It has a brass screw-down bezel with silvered site ring and bevelled glass.”
    28021 - National Maritime Museum
    As Dr. Jon notes in post 3 above, bolting the brass drum in the box makes “it unpleasant to carry in a pocket to steal for personal use.”

    I have seen two other types of boxes used by UN:

    - Page 265 of Anthony G. Randall’s book “The Time Museum Catalogue of Chronometers” illustrates a three tiered box, the bottom two of which sandwich the UN chronometer watch. The watch can be removed and used as a pocket watch. But the middle tier, with a hole to display the dial, can be locked to the bottom tier and the key stored away. The middle tier is also open to wind the watch. This would seem to satisfy two features: 1) secure the watch and 2) possible use outside the box.

    - Below are photos of one of mine (sn 28741). Here the watch can be locked in between the middle and bottom tiers, but the box must be unlocked to wind the watch – i.e., when locked, the middle tier blocks access to the crown. So the only person allowed to wind the watch is the person who has the key.

    28741 in box.jpg Ivan 03.jpg
     
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  15. michael-35

    michael-35 Registered User

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    Thank for the info. The wooden box if restored could be very beautiful.
    That one of this Ulysse I've posted is missing the plate with the inscription.
     
  16. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    It seems to me that Leigh's #28741 is slightly different to the #122759 watch posted by Michael and my #120100 in that it does not appear to have the extended push piece for the hand set that protrudes beyond the Dennison made protective case. I wonder if the hands are set by pulling out the crown in a 'conventional' manner? I don't believe BTW that those cases were utilised to deter misuse, simply to protect the watch whilst aboard ship. My watch, and I suspect Michael's as well, has a deterrent to personal misuse in that the bezel has no facility for fitting a crystal therefore, once removed from the case the hands and dial are vulnerable if used in the pocket :emoji_wink:. The watch that Leigh has shown to us does appear to have a crystal as it would be necessary within that style of box.
     
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  17. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    #17 Leigh Callaway, Mar 24, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
    The hands of chronometer watch 28741 are set by pressing a push pin and turning the crown. The crown is not pulled out to set the hands.
    28741 Push Pin.jpg

    The watch 28741 has a crystal mounted in a bezel which is snap fitted to the case. This is the same arrangement as illustrated page 256 of Randall's book "Time Museum Catalog of Chronometers" (description of the crystal/bezel on page 266). The watch 28741 is currently in for service so I cannot post a proper photo of the bezel. Here is the best for now:
    Crystal 28741.jpg

    This watch is held in a sliver open face case with a knurled edge to the threaded back. It can be removed from the box and carried as any other pocket watch
    Ivan 08 - Copy.jpg

    My other UN chronometer watch #120009 cannot be removed from the box and used as a pocket watch. It is mounted just as Michael's #122759 and DaveyG's #120100
    120009 in Box.jpg
     
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  18. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    I see the push pin now Leigh, couldn't see it in the box, however, it is different to those mounted in the Dennison Safety Case in that the push pin is extended to be accessible without removing from the mounting case. The watch, of course, can be removed quite easily from the safety case and could be carried in the pocket - if it had a crystal like the #28741. Interesting that your #120009 box has an MoD label which indicates that it was in use after 1964 when the War Office became the Ministry of Defence
     
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  19. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    #19 Leigh Callaway, Mar 25, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
    The Royal Museums Greenwich/National Maritime Museum has sixteen examples of this watch online. Of those, five are like my #120009 (post 17 above) in closed boxes with a label on the lid marked “Ministry of Defense.”
    The remainder have a “porthole” in the lid for viewing (i.e., without needing to open the box) and the “plain silver, rolled edge bezel has no fitting for a glass.” I suspect this is the arrangement with Michael's #122759 and DaveyG's #120100
    121862 - National Maritime Museum

    This variety of boxes seems to provide hints about when, where and how these watches were stored, maintained and used. But with my limited knowledge of British military timekeeping, that’s a rabbit hole I won’t jump into right away.
     
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  20. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    Correction to my post 18.
    "Ministry of Defence"
     
  21. DaveyG

    DaveyG Registered User

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    Defense - Defence ? Two peoples divided by a common language :emoji_blush:.
     
  22. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I believe that these watches were originally designed to be removed from the box and carried in the pocket when needed and later when inventory shrinkage began to be a problem there were a series of modifications mae to make them more difficult to use for other than their intended purpose.

    Here is a Johannsen of the early design.

    angleview.jpg back.jpg boxfront.jpg boxliner.jpg boxopen.jpg boxtop.jpg boxunlocked.jpg carrier.jpg casehm.jpg cuvette.jpg dial.jpg edgeview.jpg front.jpg hallmark.jpg inbox.jpg movement.jpg
     
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  23. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Tom, that 1790 George Grant Sr. of mine is about a 20 size verge. So what size would
    you call your chronometer?

    Keith R...
     
  24. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I usually think of them as 18s but they may be a bit larger.

    Here is my Isaac that has been converted to the “thief proof” form. All the alterations are easily seen.
    6CB7B101-64E4-4968-9549-03EE8423CF21.jpeg FB80CA29-06C5-446E-A685-2F911C68E82B.jpeg 5FFD97D7-C08A-491D-A39D-063BBD53EA04.jpeg DA6AFF4E-4BBD-4591-AB99-029410DDA380.jpeg C8A05F17-2770-4BE9-90B1-8B64A70B7108.jpeg 957808F6-9E89-49F5-9BF1-5DC8E699279A.jpeg 5D8C0729-CB1D-4D86-87A5-8BB82B9782E0.jpeg 5D326034-4A75-40DF-8314-44597BD468B7.jpeg 10D3AA9D-2955-4801-9A57-0DF349EFF51F.jpeg 875E3465-7313-43AC-B784-46985D14C838.jpeg 7E04A00D-5EAF-466A-AD4A-40C49B8B9368.jpeg D4D2D209-AFDF-4CCD-A930-1640F0AE22B7.jpeg 36555697-2AAF-4650-9147-114111124D25.jpeg
     
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  25. Leigh Callaway

    Leigh Callaway Registered User
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    #25 Leigh Callaway, Mar 30, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    To Tom McIntyre’s point about “thief proofing,” here are four box types holding Ulysse Nardin chronometer watches. These date from the 1930s to after 1964.


    SN 28069 1930s.jpg SN 28741 1939.jpg 122294 - National Maritime Museum SN 120009 after 1964.jpg

    SN 28069 from 1930s. A pocket watch with bow, protected by locking the middle and bottom sections. Watch can be wound while locked in the box. (Photo from “Time Museum Catalogue of Chronometers” with permission of the publisher.)

    SN 28741 from 1939. A pocket watch with bow, protected by locking the middle and bottom sections. Must be unlocked to wind.

    SN 122294 from 1943 122294 - National Maritime Museum The top is glazed with a circular “porthole” on the upper surface. The watch is mounted in a brass bowl which is permanently fixed to the box. The plain silver rolled-edge bezel has no fitting for a glass. When removed from the bowl, the watch has no crystal.

    SN 120009 box after 1964. As DaveyG notes (post 18 above), the War Department became Ministry of Defence in 1964. This watch is mounted in a brass bowl which is permanently attached to the box. The bezel with crystal screws off the bowl to remove the watch. The watch has no crystal of its own so it cannot be used as a pocket watch.

    To be clear - the first two can be removed, used as a pocket watch and may or may not return to the box. The second two cannot be removed and used as a pocket watch.
     
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  26. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    These designs appear to have evolved, perhaps as the problem grew, or maybe as the admiralty became more paranoid.

    My Isaac appears to have originally been exactly the same as my Johannsen, but was modified both in the casing and setting and in the features of the box to become the "pocket useless" form.
     
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