Type B Telechron

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by dickstorer, Jul 15, 2014.

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  1. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    I just recently acquired a type b telechron master clock. A few questions for the experts: Where is the SERNO located?

    Its quite dry, are they hard to service?

    Dick
     
  2. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Service of the Telechron master clock used to compare its pendulum with alternating current frequency at small power plants is no more difficult to service than any other precision pendulum clock.

    Do Not leave the clock connected to the electric utility service unless the pendulum is in motion.

    If the pendulum movement is not allowed to run, the electric motor will over-wind the mainspring. And that's something we said is an old wive's tale but in this machine there's more to damage than the mainspring.
     
  3. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    Here are two plates that were on my clock.....:

    Telechron Motor.jpg Telechron Plate.jpg
     
  4. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    My clock has plenty wrong with it. The pendulum is not original. All pictures show a cylindrical shape. Is the rod INVAR? And what is diameter and length of the bob?
     
  5. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Thanks to Eck and Dick, almost forgot.
     
  6. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #6 eskmill, Jul 16, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2014
    Sicksstorer asks if the Telechron B Master's pendulum rod is of Invar steel.

    I don't know what metal was used in the production of the pendulum. The presence of a weight tray atop the bob is strong evidence of a precision timepiece.

    The clock was designed to be used in a power generating plant where ambient temperature varied widely. It seems reasonable that GE Telechron specified the use of Invar steel in the construction of the pendulum. Without detailed drawings the construction of the pendulum is not known to me. It may be mechanically somewhat complex as some form of compensation for linear expansion of the rod was well known when the series of power plant master clocks were designed.

    That said, patent #1502494 does not reveal any details of the construction materials of the Warren B Master clock. The referenced drawing reveals only a simple pendulum.
     

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  7. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    It is made of Invar. I do not know the size/weight of the bob or the weight holder that is above the bob.

    Telechron M-12 7.jpg
     
  8. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Thanks to all, there is so much knowledge in this forum. From the pictures I see it came with both compensating and non compensating pendulems. Maybe I just need to make a leader.
    Dick Storer. Hampton, GA
     
  9. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    I now have a motor for my type b master. Now another question; How many teeth are in the motor pinion that drives that really large wheel. The large wheel has 165 teeth the motor is one RPM. It is the largest gear in the breakdown picture that was sent by Eckmill.

    Dick Storer Hampton, GA
     
  10. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    Dick,

    This is the best that I can do...you will have to determine the count by counting what you can see in 1/4 of the gear or 1/2 ...

    Telechron Motor Gear.jpg
     
  11. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Dick C
    Great picture, just what I needed. Looks like 32 teeth. I will do some measuring and some math to verify that. I can make a cutter and I do have a milling machine that I can index any number.

    Thanks Dick S.
     
  12. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    When I acquired this type B master clock it was missing the motor, the hour hand, and it had a mismatched pendulum. I cannibalized a motor from an old revere mantle clock but the pinion was wrong. From a picture posted by Dick C. I determined the pinion to have 32 teeth and the math seemed to verify that. But I am still not sure of the 32 teeth. I made a pendulum that at least looks like the one in Dick C's picture. Made the 32 tooth pinion and have a hour hand that indicates tho it is not pretty. Now my question. With the mechanical regulated to a steady 4800 BPH and the motor running should the big hand point straight up? My big hand turns to the left and will go a full circle over and over. What have I done wrong?

    Dick Storer
     
  13. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    #13 Dick C, Jul 26, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
    If the motor is 1 RPM and turning in the correct direction and the pendulum is swinging I would say that it should not be making the turns like you are. The idea behind this clock was that the center hand was to show the generator operator whether he/she needed to adjust the output of the generator one way or the other depending upon the swing of the center hand.

    So, I am not an expert with this clock, just know enough to be dangerous. Things that I would look at:

    Is the motor 1 RPM

    Is the motor turning in the correct direction

    Is the motor turning and the gears that it engages

    Is the weight and/or length of the pendulum correct

    I would also take a look at the spring to see if it is being unwound. If the system was running correctly you should see very little or no changes in the spring coil. The pendulum swing unwinds the spring, the motor winds it.

    Is the small clock keeping the correct time?

    Now are there any other missing gears in the configuration? Look for locations with no pinions..

    Telechron Works A - without suspension.jpg
     
  14. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Thanks to Dick C.

    I have checked all that you mentioned. All is OK. The only thing unknown about the pendulum is the size and weight. I have used a wood dowel 3/16" dia. for the stick and the bob is a old weight shell with brass insert. I would estimate the bob to weigh at least 2 lbs. It did indicate a steady 4800 BPH on my timetrax. The pinion count has to be right at 32. Anything less or more and the pinion would not mesh properly. The small dial does keep time and it seems like the MS just stays put.

    The SERNO is 1176. That is probably in the 20's.

    There are not many of these clocks around so I have nothing to directly compare with.

    Thanks again to all.

    Dick Storer
     
  15. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    I have to be wrong in the pinion count, the pinion on the motor. I made the pinion 32 teeth and that seems to be just a bit fast, causing the big wheel to turn a bit to fast. Faster than the tick can equal. What if I replaced the 32 tooth pinion with 30 teeth? Am I on the right track?

    Dick Storer
    Hampton, GA
     
  16. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #16 Tinker Dwight, Jul 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2014
    Is it the error hand that is turning?
    I've not seem one of these but if it is the
    error hand turning, it might be the motor is
    turning backwards.
    As I understand it, it has a deferential between
    both movements. If they are both turning ( but in
    opposite directions ) the error hand should remain
    stationary.
    More pictures would help.
    If you did a tooth count of the wheels and pinions from
    the escapement wheel to the dial, I could calculate the
    proper motor pinion.
    Use Les' picture as reference.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I was giving this some thought.
    Try this experiment. Run the clock with
    and without the electric motor running.
    If the dial slows down with the motor off,
    that means the motor is running backwards.
    ( The dial should spin faster with the
    motor turned off than on. )
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Looking at the large gear wheel being 165, that is 5 * 33 when factored.
    I suspect the gear in question may have been a 33 tooth
    and not a 32 or 30.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  19. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Thanks Tink for the PMs. I do not know how to answer there. Some things I do know: the mechanical part will run with the electric turned off only until the slack in the gears is taken up. If the motor is removed the clock will tick for a while, it will run down in a short time because the MS turns the electric part backwards.
    I am pretty sure the tooth count is correct at 32. Using the module system the dia of the missing pinion is just right. 33 would make it big and 31 would probably miss.

    i am wondering about my power now. What could affect the 60 cycles per sec?
     
  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Synchronous motors will lock on the line frequency and run
    without missing a cycle over a large range of voltages. I think a
    count of teeth is about the only way to tell what you are up
    against.
    Have you been able to observe that the differential action
    is working? It might be that the it is not working right.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    #21 Dick C, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
    Why isn't it the mechanical side that is the problem?

    If the motor with gear is installed and not plugged in AND the spring is wound, how long will the mechanical side run before it stops?

    The instruction manual states that it should run approximately a day before the spring is unwound.

    It is ok to run it this way.

    What you do not want to do is plug it in and let the motor run without the pendulum swinging....
     
  22. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #22 Tinker Dwight, Aug 1, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
    If it stalls the mechanical part, right away, that is a good indication
    that the differential may not be working correctly. It is not a positive,
    since the load on the movement might increase with it motor off..
    Tinker Dwight
     
  23. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    With the motor installed and not plugged in, it should not stall the mechanical side.

    I am concerned that there is something on the mechanical side that is actually causing the stall. It could be the differential.

    When I owned the clock from which I have posted some photos, I had two problems with the clock, the simplest being that the crutch loop through which the invar rod was inserted had too much play in it. Reducing the play allowed the clock to keep in beat once I had the major problem fixed.

    The major problem was in the arbor that holds the spring and the click. The click was riding against the plate, not allowing the power from the spring to do its job. One would find that the first 3 or so gears from spring arbor would be tight, yet nothing else would happen.

    I found that there is a pin, where the click engages. This pin was sheared on one side and the click mechanism had separated somewhat from the flared side of the spring arbor, allowing the click to rub on the brass plate.

    See the photo in post 13...I believe this is the photo that I took before it was fixed.
     
  24. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I gave it some thought, it should actually run
    better without the motor running ( at least until
    it ran out of wind ). It does sound like something is
    not right.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  25. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    I have had this thing apart again, checked everything that I know about and all is OK. The part I am unfamiliar with is the BIG wheel with 165 teeth, driven by a 1 rpm motor and a 32 tooth pinion. I think the 32 is correct. Dick C sent me a picture that I could use to count the pinion teeth. Using the module system also indicates that 32 is the correct number. Best of all I have just learned about an identical clock less than 20 miles of me. The owner is going to count the pinion teeth for verification. The BIG wheel seems to be to loose on its stud. With the movement apart (or together) I can grasp the rim of the wheel and move it up or down nearly 1/4 inch. That needs to be addressed. For those who don't know, the differential gearing is an integral part of the BIG wheel. It has a very healthy tick and the timetrax indicates a steady 4800 bph.

    Tink, Dick C., do you thing the loosness in the big wheel could cause the power indicator hand to move very slowly but steadly CCW? It takes about 1 hour for the hand to make 1 revolution.

    Dick Storer
     
  26. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #26 eskmill, Aug 2, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
    Dick Stosrer wrote, " .........do you thing the loosness in the big wheel could cause the power indicator hand to move very slowly but steadly CCW? It takes about 1 hour for the hand to make 1 revolution."

    Dick. Your observation that the indicator is moving slowly and continuously in counter-clock wise direction is a very clear indication that the utility AC electrical power is being delivered to the electric motor at a frequency less than the design of 60 Hz.

    This would cause any AC electric clocks in on the same circuit to run slow and loose time and cause you to be late for dinner. AC electric motors made for AC electric clocks rarely run slow but instead stop dead.

    It should be obvious that the electric motor is :
    1. Running slow, or
    2. The gear you made has the wrong count.
    3. The electric motor you replaced has the wrong pinion.

    DO THE MATH!
    Go figure, I can't ! :eek:
     
  27. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    The replacement motor (rotor and coil) came from a Revere Mantle clock. I mathed the pinion teeth count and diameter from the BIG wheel and also a count from the picture that Dick C sent. The motor does turn just 1 RPM, I have timed it with a stop watch several times and it does turn cw. It takes very little torque to turn the BIG wheel and I see no slippage any where. In my whole house there is not 1 electric clock to check the power output. Let me be clear about the pinion that came with the rotor. It had a diameter of approximately 3/4". I made a pinion of 32 teeth and a diameter of 1.0084.

    Dick Storer
     
  28. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #28 eskmill, Aug 3, 2014
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
    Dick: In post 14 you stated: "It did indicate a steady 4800 BPH on my timetrax."
    Are you certain that your TimeTrax is accurate?

    As I see the situation at the moment, You are gambling on the accuracy of the TimeTrax when you have a the utility electric service available as a reference and the Telechron B power station clock is indicating that the pendulum is running too fast or at a rate actually less than 4800 BPH.

    Try this: Raise the bob to speed the escapement until the indicator is relatively stationary indicating the difference in the electric motor and the escapement rates are equal.

    Then check the pendulum rate with the TimeTrax. You may discover that the TimeTrax is not as accurate as the average 60 Hz utility power.
     
  29. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Hi Dick
    These clocks are made to be sensitive to small differences
    in time.
    I assume there is a scale at the top of the clock. Is there any
    indication of the value of each increment? Is it cycles?
    Was is the angle of each increment? I suspect Les is right
    and your TimeTrax is off but I can't do calculations without more information.
    The fact that it takes about an hour for one full turn leads me to think
    that the 32 tooth gear is most likely right. I'd think a one tooth error in that
    count would create a much more noticeable error indication, being about
    3% off.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  30. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    How do I retrieve and send private messages?
     
  31. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    If you want to send a PM then find the username of the individual....in the left side of the messages. Left click on their name and click on PRIVATE MESSAGE.

    If you want to read, go to the NOTIFICATIONS on the top right of the page. Left click on the arrow and INBOX should come up.

    Keep clicking.
     
  32. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Eck, you might be on to something. I just discovered a short in the pickup for the timetrax. Later this morning I will raise the pend to see if that will at least start to slow the indicator hand.

    Dick
     
  33. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    For all who are following this thread. Another type b master was located just. 20 miles away and the owner has given me a firm count of 33teeth in that drive wheel. So now it's back to the milling machine.
    i promise to post the results ASAP.

    Dick Storer
     
  34. dickstorer

    dickstorer Registered User

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    Well, I was certainly wrong about the pinion count on the motor. A direct count from another type B master revealed the pinion to have 33 teeth, I would have bet the farm that it was 32. This morning I finished cutting the new pinion, put it on and on the test stand the long indicator hand just points to zero. It flicks with each tick but always point s to zero. Now I need to make a more original looking susp. spring and pend. leader.

    Thanks to all, especially Tinker Dwight, Eckmill, and Dick C. Tink had it right from the start.

    Dick Storer
     

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