Trundle wear?

disciple_dan

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I have an older Ingraham movement with some trundles that have a notch worn into them. Less than10 percent I would say. Is it an acceptable repair to move the driving wheel over to a clean spot on the trundles? Thanks, Danny
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R. Croswell

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Theoretically that is OK, but you can run into issues with moving wheels. If you try to move this wheel (circled in red), or one like it, to avoid the wear in the lantern pinion trundles above, you will also be moving the attached pinion which will change its alignment with the main wheel. Now if you just simply press the hub of the wheel, you can force the trundles through the small shroud where they can slip out, plus you will reduce the width of the lantern. Now you can wrap a steel strip around the lantern so the shroud will move the same amount as the wheel. It won't be a problem in this example where the lantern pinion and wheel share a common hub but moving a wheel (or a pinion) can lessen its "grip" on the arbor so if the wheel is on one end of the arbor, and the pinion on the other, it will be more likely to slip.

I would say that it would take less time and avoid potential problems to simply replace the worn trundles in that lantern pinion. So, no, moving wheels to avoid worn trundles is not usually the preferred repair.

RC

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disciple_dan

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Thanks, R. Croswell. I see what you mean. Nearly all of the trundles in the time train are worn like this. Not as much on the strike side.
This clock is stopping after a few hours and I was thinking it was because the gear teeth were binding at the trundle wear points. After your enlightening comments, I was looking a little closer and I found that this main wheel is touching the second wheel hub. That can't be good. Thanks, Danny
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Willie X

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Looks like it's always run there. Probably a little arbor wear, or looseness in the great wheel, cocked it forward a scosh?
Willie X
 

RJSoftware

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Trundle wear is different on different clocks. 30 hour clocks (low torque, less mainspring) handle it better. 8 day, strong springs, rely on better gear mesh. Trundles don't have to turn/roll. So you can simplify repair by rolling worn side in and use locktight to keep them stationary, smooth side out. Replacement involves selecting matching diameter pivot wire pieces, cut to precise length, opening cap and peen close, or use locktight, which results in non rotating trundle. Ideally they should roll so surfaces wont ware, but in the real world...So in short, roll smooth side out with needle nose, then locktight/glue in place.
 
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R. Croswell

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Does 10% or less wear on the trundles warrant replacement or any other repair if the clock still runs correctly?
There were very few clocks made with rolling trundles, this is not one of them. In most cases like this one, either the trundles were not intended to rotate, or were originally allowed to rotate if they pleased but for whatever reason did not do so for years. One thing that I have noticed in clocks and other machinery as well, is that old worn parts that have run together for years with other old parts can seem to be rather happy to continue even when there is obvious wear.

Back in the 60's I purchased a 10-speed bicycle and put hundreds of miles on it. Then a friend asked to borrow it for a bike trip. As a favor to me, it took it to a bike shop to have everything checked over before returning it. The shop said the chain was worn and needed to be replaced so it was. When I got it back it wouldn't shift correctly and would jump and make noises. Problem was that the sprockets were also worn but the shop only replaced the chain. I asked to please have the shop put that old worn chain back on. They did and it ran fine until I got rid of that bike.

Back to the original question, it depends...... Depends on if the clock is your own, depends on whether you are about restoring this clock or just making it run for a while longer. Depends on when you will be revisiting this clock. If the clock belongs to someone else, depends on the owner understanding the extent of the wear and how much it will cost to do a proper repair, and what to expect if it is not repaired.

One thing worse than having trundles with a flat worn on one side of all the trundles is having a flat spot only on some of the trundles. Rotating the trundles to put the unworn side in service will work if one just wants a cheap fix, and if they stay in place. If the Loctite actually holds, it will be a pain for anyone trying to replace the trundles later on. Rebuilding a lantern pinion for the first time may be a bit intimidating, but the process is quite simple. One usually uses tempered pivot wire or music wire which should last a lifetime whether it rotates or not.

If one is restoring a clock and there is obvious trundle wear, the lantern should have all the trundles replaced. Otherwise, it depends........

RC
 

disciple_dan

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Yeah, I haven't repaired any trundles yet. This is my personal clock right now but someone wants to purchase it. This one needs a lot of the trundles replaced. I've done quite a few clocks and have seen some wear but never have seen trundles that needed to be replaced. I've had one or two that had fallen out but that was an easy fix. I wonder why this one is so worn?
I think it might be time to learn a new task. I'll eventually need to replace some so I'll use my own clock to practice on.
Know anywhere to find good instruction? Thanks, Danny
 

Willie X

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Keep in mind that there is always some risk involved when rebuilding pinions.

My advise would be to let this one slide and save your efforts for a job where the trundles are at the 20 to 30% worn down point. They still may not be actually causing a problem but clearly due for replacement.

My 2, Willie X
 
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R. Croswell

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Yeah, I haven't repaired any trundles yet. This is my personal clock right now but someone wants to purchase it. This one needs a lot of the trundles replaced. I've done quite a few clocks and have seen some wear but never have seen trundles that needed to be replaced. I've had one or two that had fallen out but that was an easy fix. I wonder why this one is so worn?
I think it might be time to learn a new task. I'll eventually need to replace some so I'll use my own clock to practice on.
Know anywhere to find good instruction? Thanks, Danny
Steve Conover’s book “Clock Repair Basics” describes a practical method that does not require any expensive special tools. There is an article in the how to section here that describes other methods, some which I cannot recommend. The lantern shrouds are typically closed with a stake or by knurling. Either will work OK. I cannot recommend solder, Loctite, or glue. You will need to match the trundle diameter pretty close. You will want a split stake to support the shroud when closing the holes. As for this clock, it will probably be OK for a while, but why pass up an opportunity to learn a new skill.

RC
 
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RJSoftware

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The only reason I recommend the quick fix is because I try to gather from your general opinion and estimate your knowledge base.

I don't argue the validity of 100% correct and original repair procedure. Instead I lay out the "out of the box" option.

The emphasis of my point was to inform you that trundles do not intentionally roll. But even ones built not intended to roll maybe loose.

I'm not such a purist anymore, so I'm no longer repulsed by lock-tight etc. Instead some days I see a bright sunny day outside my window and a garden I love needs tending. So I compromise a bits. Nothing worse in the whole world than missing out on them kinda days.
 

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Dave T

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Steve Conover’s book “Clock Repair Basics” describes a practical method that does not require any expensive special tools.
This line got my attention, but I just flipped through every page of this book, and I don't see any thing about repairing trundles? CORRECTION. I do see the section about the split stake on page 5.
 

R. Croswell

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This line got my attention, but I just flipped through every page of this book, and I don't see any thing about repairing trundles? CORRECTION. I do see the section about the split stake on page 5.
I'm Sorry, I was relying on memory. The article I had in mind is actually pages 10 to 15, Chapter 2 of, Clock Repair Skills, by Steve Conover. Includes 15 pictures and 3 illustrations. The method he describes is the method I use. (The book if worth having for this and other content.)

RC
 

Dave T

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Okay, I understand, I don't have that book, but maybe I'll order it.
 

Swanicyouth

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The only reason I recommend the quick fix is because I try to gather from your general opinion and estimate your knowledge base.

I don't argue the validity of 100% correct and original repair procedure. Instead I lay out the "out of the box" option.

The emphasis of my point was to inform you that trundles do not intentionally roll. But even ones built not intended to roll maybe loose.

I'm not such a purist anymore, so I'm no longer repulsed by lock-tight etc. Instead some days I see a bright sunny day outside my window and a garden I love needs tending. So I compromise a bits. Nothing worse in the whole world than missing out on them kinda days.
With this I agree. I’ve replace a few trundles trying to peen over the top & hated it. Bought a crows foot tool & still hated it. For whatever reason, my trundles don’t want to stay put until I get dangerously to the point of using my BF hammer.

Then I tried Loctite. Beautiful. Easy. They ain’t going nowhere.
 
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R. Croswell

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With this I agree. I’ve replace a few trundles trying to peen over the top & hated it. Bought a crows foot tool & still hated it. For whatever reason, my trundles don’t want to stay put until I get dangerously to the point of using my BF hammer.

Then I tried Loctite. Beautiful. Easy. They ain’t going nowhere.
Simon, if you experienced difficulty retaining replacement trundles in lantern pinions without using Loctite, then I suspect there is a problem with your technique. First of all, "peening (to strike with a hammer or the peen of a hammer) over the top" will not work. Second, a crow's foot is not the correct tool for this. For the benefit of others who may be experiencing the same problem, lets take a look some things that can cause problems.

The problem can go back to improper removal of the old trundles. There are basically three options:
1) force the trundle through the previously staked or knurled openings in the shroud.
2) cut the trundles in the middle and remove in two pieces.
3) press the arbor through the shroud (slip the shroud back and allow the trundles to fall out.

Using method 1 or 2 one may be faced with the need to "relieve" the opening in the shroud in order to get the old trundles out and/or get the new ones in. It can be tempting to use a small drill for this purpose but this can chamfer the opening of the hole and remove the very metal that needs to be there when the openings are staked or knurled. It is critical that the openings in the shroud not be opened beyond the diameter of the trundle, otherwise, attempts to secure the trundle can be compromised and fail. I have found that a length of the same pinion wire can be ground flat on the end and shaped like a "spade drill" and used to ream the openings to the size of the trundles that will be cut from the same piece of pinion wire.

The replacement trundles must be the correct length, and the ends should be ground flat with no burr. If the trundle is too long there wont be enough head room for staking or knurling to close the opening and the trundles will not stay in place.

There are numerous ways to retain trundles including knurling, staking, Loctite retaining compound, JB-Weld, solder, and pressing a solid brass blank against the lantern shroud and each comes with its own set of problems. Knurling and staking have been used by manufacturers for over a hundred years which proves that those methods do work. Knurling requires a lathe and a special knurling tool so I'll confine my comments to staking.

Once the old trundles are removed the shroud needs to be supported around 360 degrees. This is done using a "split stake" which can be purchased or made. A crow's foot only supports the shroud at two points and will not hold it in position for staking. Staking (not peening) is the method here. The stake is a punch with a thin flat end. The thickness is a little less than the diameter of the trundle, and the width is a little wider than the opening to be closed., and the tip is slightly curved but with sharp edges. The stake is placed across the opening and tapped with a hammer. It will leave an impression in the brass and cause metal to be forced toward the opening to retain the trundle. While it may not look as nice, I find that placing the stake at 90 degrees from the original staking to use "fresh meat" gives the best result. I've done hundreds of trundles this way and have never had one come out.

If you remove the old trundles using method 1 above (slide the shroud back) you can replace the trundles and slide the shroud back into position and retain the original staking or knurling. This has the advantage of making an invisible repair. The disadvantage is that once disturbed, the shroud may not grip the arbor quite as tight. However, many professionals prefer this method.

RC
 
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disciple_dan

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Has anyone seen this tool or a similar one? The concept is good but I don't think it will do the job without damage to the pivot. It is intended to push the arbor thru the top caption until you can remove the rods for replacement. I don't see how you would use it to push it back on but you could find a way for that. It would not damage a good original peening job to remove the rods this way
Does anyone see an improvement to help with this concept? Thanks, Danny
20220525_105307.jpg 20220525_105332.jpg 20220525_105402.jpg
 

R. Croswell

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I would advise against pressing the pivot. The “ram” should have a pivot-size hole so it presses the shoulder.

Going back, you need to support the opposite end shoulder. The ram then needs to be hollow to slip over the arbor to press the shroud back on evenly.

I don’t see this contraption doing that without modifications. With some imagination, you can do the same thing with a drill press or lathe. Hint; a drill chuck can be set to not grip the pivot and press the arbor.

RC
 
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Willie X

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I'm pretty sure that elaborate rig could be replaced and improved with the right furniture and a cheap one ton Chinese arbor press, or a good size bench style drill press.
RC has already mentioned what is needed.
Willie X
 

disciple_dan

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I'm pretty sure that elaborate rig could be replaced and improved with the right furniture and a cheap one ton Chinese arbor press, or a good size bench style drill press.
RC has already mentioned what is needed.
Willie X
I don't even know what all that means but I think this can be put to good use with some fixtures as RC suggested. I was already thinking of a short flat piece of steel about 1"x 3/8" x 1/4" thick with a series of small holes drilled in it to receive the pivot. I would never try to press directly on the pivot, please. I could add another Ram as you say RC and simultaneously Screw them down on the pivot block and press the arbor out of the top trundle caption. I could screw it to a piece of plywood and set up another pivot block for the bottom for pressing it back on.
You don't have to like it Wille X. I won't hold it against you. Thanks for the comments, Danny
 

bkerr

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Lantern Pin Cutter & StakingTool

Quantity:
LANTERN PIN CUTTER & STAKINGTOOL
* A top quality, American-made unit which incorporates two tools in one
* All sliding parts, punches, and dies are made of fully hardened steel for maximum durability
* The pinion cutter is fully adjustable for lengths from .200" to .625
* The cutter locks for repetitive cutting giving you perfect alignment every time...accuracy of length and smoothness of cut are guaranteed
* The staking tool incorporates 13 holes from 1/8" to 1/2" in 1/32 increments
* 5 die holes from .020" to .062"
* Pinion wire and instructions are included

In case you have never seen one of these. Also check out a good staking set
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Has anyone seen this tool or a similar one? The concept is good but I don't think it will do the job without damage to the pivot. It is intended to push the arbor thru the top caption until you can remove the rods for replacement. I don't see how you would use it to push it back on but you could find a way for that. It would not damage a good original peening job to remove the rods this way
Does anyone see an improvement to help with this concept? Thanks, Danny
View attachment 710634 View attachment 710635 View attachment 710636
Dan
At first glance I am also not a big fan of this tool.

Over the years when it comes to lantern pinion repair, I have mentioned many times, I am not a fan of pounding, chemicals or certainly not soft solder.

As mentioned by RC, original manufactured procedures have proven highly effective. Duplicating those procedures is actually very simple without complicated tools. In your case since you have a Lathe, a knurling tool such as in the first photo is easily made and provides an invisible original repair in a few seconds.

Some shrouds contain a single punched hash mark per trundle. (Don't have an example handy)
These are easily reestablished by modifying a needle nose pliers.

First heat and bend the tip per second/third photo and sharpen as illustrated.

Then grind a slot in the lower jaw with a Dremel cutoff wheel again per illustration third photo

In use , fourth photo, the lower jaw supports the shroud while the upper jaw reestablishes the cross hash mark. This applies no stress on the assembly eliminating possible damage.

Jerry Kieffer

A800B573-9E35-4C9A-9223-3E8F9C026030_1_201_a.jpeg 30872FDA-E55D-4264-88CC-6CCED2A1AAB7_1_201_a.jpeg 8885B161-A192-4388-964D-2FC58E9CC9F5_1_201_a.jpeg 20BB464E-00CD-4DA2-A930-867EDCEA1FAF_1_201_a.jpeg
 
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disciple_dan

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Thanks, Jerry. I'll try to make a pair of those. I'm sure I will need them soon. I'm still not getting anywhere with the lathe. You say easily made. It's not so easy for someone like me. I have 0.00 percent experience working with metal. Just knowing what to use for making parts and tools is complicated for me. I don't have time to teach myself for having to spend all of my time on making a living. It's frustrating at times. Sorry for the wining.
Do you have any videos for sale? I didn't forget about the trumpet you made for me. It was perfect. Thanks, Danny
 

Jerry Kieffer

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Thanks, Jerry. I'll try to make a pair of those. I'm sure I will need them soon. I'm still not getting anywhere with the lathe. You say easily made. It's not so easy for someone like me. I have 0.00 percent experience working with metal. Just knowing what to use for making parts and tools is complicated for me. I don't have time to teach myself for having to spend all of my time on making a living. It's frustrating at times. Sorry for the wining.
Do you have any videos for sale? I didn't forget about the trumpet you made for me. It was perfect. Thanks, Danny
Dan
If your not familiar with metal working, look at the bright side. You don't how to do it wrong.
For the lathe , read the instruction and assembly guide. If you have a problem making a part, give me a call and I will walk you through it.

I do not have Videos for sale.

Jerry Kieffer
 

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