Triple Crown

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by DeanT, Jan 27, 2017.

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  1. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

    Mar 22, 2009
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    Hi,

    Is there any meaning behind the triple crown engraved on this dial? I assume the clock dates to 1690's and wondered if there was an political significance to the engraving? I've seen it on a couple of other clocks of similar vintage.

    Thanks in advance,
    Dean

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  2. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Maybe England, Scotland, and Wales?
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Dean,

    These are coronets rather than crowns, and don't appear to correspond with any "real" ones, (dukes, earls, barons, etc), so these are probably the engraver's fancy. In any event, the Act of Union between England and Scotland was passed in 1707.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #4 novicetimekeeper, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
    I agree, I have clocks with one, and have seen others. I have always taken them to be Baronets as they have those round balls on the tops of the points. I have never seen one with three before.

    BTW That movement has some lovely collets and tapered arbours, the more I look at it the more I like it. It will be interesting to see more on the case when you get it, it looks like softwood where the black has worn away.
     
  5. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Three crowns is usually associated with Sweden.
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Do the Swedes have this type of crown too?
     
  7. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  9. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Could this clock not have a Swedish origin?
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I don't know anything about Swedish clocks but to me this is very much an English longcase. It lacks a signature, which is often said to mean that it is made by a quaker, but I'm not entirely convinced that is always the case.
     
  11. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #11 MartinM, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2017
    I'm not saying THIS one is Swedish. It's most likely late 17th century English.
     
  12. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #12 novicetimekeeper, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 27, 2017
    That's an excellent find, well done. Though it is currently for sale so it should not be added to the thread.

    They don't provide many photos of something they want so much money for. It has been suggested this clock is London work, it may well be that the two makers used the same engraver.


    EDIT> It was suggested to me once that my Baker dial may have come from London, perhaps that's true.

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     
  13. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    I've removed the for sale links. Let's not do that.
     
  14. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Sorry Steven.

    I didn't even catch that it was a for sale item.
     
    DeanT likes this.
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  16. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    #16 DeanT, Jan 27, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2017
    Thanks to everyone for their replies its been very helpful. I was especially surprised and interested to see that the Thomas Blandford dial had the same engraving but only one not three of the coronets. That made me conclude that its likely my original thought that there might be some significance behind the 3 coronets engraving is probably misplaced and its just nice decoration!

    Nick, what was your best guess on the age of the Blandford? Given its spandrels, the unusual half-hour markings the same as Gretton's pattern it's hard not to think the dial was engraved in London. Its also means that coronet was used in early 1700's giving a wider date range for my clock.

    I also found a virtually identical dial in C&W on page 148 by William Fuller, London circa 1695-1700. Charles Gretton (LC32 in the book "Through the Golden Age") has 3 coronets as well which they date to 1690-1695. Thomas Bridge circa 1690 from the link.

    I've attached a few photos of the movement and case to this thread. 8 day movement with inside countwheel. Case has concave moulding so i'd think the clock is 1700 give or take a couple of years.


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  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I think the Thos Baker is before 1710 and in style with the engraving between the spandrels looks earlier than 1705, I do wonder if the dial did come from London. It has always been suggested he got his cases from London. That would mean that the stylistic detailing could be more accurate than you would normally expect for a provincial clock.

    Your unsigned clock seems a dead ringer for the Bridge clock, when you get it you will be able to decide if the case does, in fact, belong to the dial and movement. I'm still on the look out fopr an internal countwheel, it's amazing that I have two clocks from around 1700 and they are both rack. (though one does now appear to have been originally designed as external countwheel so that could be considered a near miss)
     
  18. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    According to Loomes in his book Brass Dial Clocks a three crown motif around the calendar box was popular with makers in London and elsewhere around the 1690s. An illustration of one is shown in plate 61. There appears to be no historical reason for it.
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    That's the trouble with having so many books you don't read them. Thank you for that Jonathan.
     
  20. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

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    Thanks Jonathan. The one book I need and don't have....Its amazing how you keep learning about these clocks every time you look at a new one.

    The engraving b/n spandrels on the baker is found on a lot of London clocks. The majority of which I would say are 1690's including one I have which is pre 1700 as it has a convex hood moulding. I'm a bit fuzzy on when the baker spandrel style started. C&W said 1705 but I think maybe a little earlier.....I think it is London made so there won't be a gap before the style migrated to the country in this case.

    Think the case is probably original but can't be too sure until it makes the journey half way around the world. Time to research japanning cases as I suspect the finish isn't the best....
     
  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Who knows, perhaps I got to the 17th century without realising it!

    Hope you are pleased with your purchase when it finally arrives Dean, we look forward to finding out more.
     

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