Triangular Bed Lathe Questions

Discussion in 'Horological Tools' started by Richard Watkins, Feb 1, 2020.

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  1. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    The attached photos are of parts in a lathe I have, probably a copy of a G. Boley lathe. The lathe can be used as both turns and as a lathe with split chucks. In order, they are:

    Mystery chuck: I have no idea of its use. The thread is about 6.5mm and the head is about 15mm diameter with a hole about 2.5 mm and a fixing screw for the rod.

    Rose cutters: According to de Carle, “The Watchmakers’ Lathe”, they are rose cutters for making recesses and where a “pipe or pivot shaped piece is required.” The brass piece is the only holder that they fit in and it is about 16mm in diameter. There are 8 “rose cutters” and all are about 9mm diameter with different sizes of holes, so they cannot make different sizes of recesses. I think de Carle is wrong, but …

    Rose cutter holder: This attaches to a tailstock. I first thought it might be a drilling tailstock, but there is no way to hold a drill. Indeed, the only attachments that fit id are the rose cutters! There is also a plain, flat brass insert about the same diameter and I have no idea what it could be used for.

    Tiny points: Length about 40 mm, diameter about 2mm. I have 5 out of 6 and all have different points. Obviously hand held, because of the brass, knurled end, but they do not fit into any other of the lathe’s parts! Surely they are not meant to be held “free-hand” but …

    I can post other photos of the lathe if you want them, but everything else is standard and intelligible.

    So what are these pieces for?

    MysteryChuckSm.jpg RoseCutterSm.jpg HolderSm.jpg TinyPointsSm.jpg Machine.jpg
     
  2. wefalck

    wefalck Registered User

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    Rose cutters are used to reduce the diameters of material, e.g. screw stems, without applying radial pressure. Normally, they fit into a cone in the tailstock.

    In order to cut recesses into watch-plates etc. there are sinkers. These have one square cutting edge at the front and came in sets of a dozen of different width. They also fit into the cone of a tailstock runner. Carlè also has a picture of them in his book.

    It is always difficult to work out things from photographs, but it may be that the lever-drilling attachment fits into the thingy to the left of your tailstock in the picture. Normally the runner would have a small cone in the front for the rose cutters, sinkers etc. There would have also been a couple of tiny collets for the standard 1 mm and 1.5 mm shank watchmakers drills. These collets have a full bore at the front and are split at the back. Pushing them into the cone wedges also the drills.

    No idea about the arbor with the solid holding piece. The arbor looks industrial, but more modern, for mounting a chuck. The holding piece is probably shop-made.
     
  3. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Sorry for the delay. Thanks for the information, its been helpful.
     
  4. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Moderator
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    A couple of guesses:

    ON the rose cutters the key difference may be the center opening.
    The runner with the small hole and the slot behind it is for holding pivot drills. The slot os to enable you to push them out if they break off.

    One other thing to keep in mind is that lathes of this era were also used fpr screw head finishing which later evolved to a separate tool.

    Stephen Pahlow's Ibooks on Lorch lathes may be helpful.

    Steffen Pahlow's private website in Deutsch, Bücher und Vorträge
     
  5. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    G'Day Jon!

    I must disagree about intended use of the runner with transverse slot. The purpose of that runner is to hold tapered centres, male or female. The image below shows few runners that belong to my turns, which is also with the triangular bed, also shown (bought at the side walk flea market for ~ $5). The runners are 6.59 mm in diameter and are 75 to 85 mm long.

    The two runners, on top of the image, are with replaceable tapered centres, the others are with various fixed centres, either concentric or eccentric. Runner on the top, on one end, is for use with eccentric centres, and on the other end it is for concentric ones. The transverse slots provide access for removing the tapered centres, as You have already explained.

    BTW, The same size runners are used on an Boley 6.5 mm lathe with D-bed, of a later date than the triangular bed turns and runners are not with transverse slots, but are with a transverse holes like the second runner from top.

    Cheers, Dushan

    Turns Runners 01.JPG G.Boley Turns 02.jpg Drilling in turns.jpg
     
  6. Richard Watkins

    Richard Watkins Registered User
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    Hi Dushan.
    There are some photos of my lathe in Watchmaking, the American System of Manufacturing and Mass Production, pages 72-75.
    I think you might be confusing two things. The lathe (see the picture of it complete) has a set of runners as you describe in a drawer, except the pulley is missing. The tiny runners are much smaller, hand held and don't fit into anything on the lathe.
     
  7. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    G'Day Richard!

    Perhaps I misread the initial post, thus I have only shown the assumed purpose of the runner to be for holding a tiny tapered centres, not drill bits, regardless of where it is used, in the turns or in a lathe. Just as was illustrated by W.J. Gazeley in his book «Watch and Clock Making and Repairing» page 114, and also by other authors.

    Page 114.jpg

    I have no idea where would runners shown in the post Nr.1 image Nr. 4 fit. They could also be a part of some other tool, the runner on top clearly has a male centre as the tip, the brass handles are there to ease the handling. Such handles are often used and are made of other materials other than brass.

    Nr. 13 - Durchbohrte Spitze.jpg

    Runner shown above is 7.00 mm in diameter and is used as universal centre on Lorch D-bed lathes and is accepting various tapered attachments 4.0 mm in diameter like centres, drill holders, rose cutters etc.

    Also if the runners are as tiny as You indicate the purpose of the lower one might be for holding tiny drill bits for pivoting as indicated by the drawing below, as well as in my message #5. Thus Jon could be quite correct. These can easily be much like the drill bit holders used with the pivoting lathe shown in Your book, image 24.

    Drilling in turns.jpg

    It is not at all strange for the drill bits to be held in some kind of holder, held by hand while drilling in the lathe, providing that the centre was cut first with a sharp graver in order to start drilling.

    Cheers, Dushan
     
  8. wefalck

    wefalck Registered User

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    According to Carlè's book the runners with a bore, a cone and a cross-bore or slot are 'pivot-guards'. I didn't check, but I think this is how they are described also in my Lorch, Schmidt & Co. and Wolf, Jahn & Co. catalogues. The bores and slots presumably are used to supply oil.

    On larger machines, e.g. with Morse-tapers, there is a cross-drilled hole or slot just below the top-end of the taper-tool so that one can drive out the tool with the aid of a wedge.
     
  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi wefalck,

    The cross bores are there to enable proper cleaning; if they weren't there it would be very difficult to be sure that the centre hole was completely clear of any debris. Putting a delicate pivot into a blind hole that was effectively too short would be a risk.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  10. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    #10 Dushan Grujich, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    G'Day Eberhard!

    The image below, shows a runner with a female safety centre. Both are with a transverse hole, runner has it to allow prying out the safety centre. Why? It is there because safety centre is mounted by a self holding taper which at times can prove to be very difficult to remove, hence one can use a lever put in the hole of the runner which is holding the safety centre and simply push centre out. The two transverse holes, each has different purpose.

    Runner with Removable Centre.JPG

    Early runners had a transversal slot providing access to the rear end of the self holding centre to allow its removal, as shown below.

    Early Runner with Removable Centre.JPG

    Cheers, Dushan
     
  11. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    Richard,

    There are several kinds of Rose cutters. Ones that You have are milling cutters Nr. 47 (Lorch catalogue page), that are used for milling pivots on arbours, milling screws etc so their OD does not matter.

    24.jpg

    The rose cutters which de Carle describes are the sink mills with a pilot that can be removed form centre hole bored in them.

    Cheers, Dushan
     
  12. wefalck

    wefalck Registered User

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    #12 wefalck, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    Dushan, I have never come across this kind of runners, only the second type you pictured. Learned something ! I have a set of such small centres, but they belong to the safety pulley.

    Graham, of course, a deep blind hole would be a no-no. I have several female centres with a small concentric bore and a cross-hole. There is also a split variant, a female centre that is split lengthwise.

    To be honest, not actually using my machines for watch- or clockmaking, I am not so familiar with the use of some of the attachments as in my machining tasks I did not have had a need for them (yet).

    De Carlè shows rose cutters (as per Dushan's post) and sinkers, which are essentially short D-drilling bits with a horizontal face. The latter have the same tailstock taper as the centres and rose cutters.

    I have a collection of sinkers in the shape of tailstock runners of only 3,8 mm diameter that came with the very first lathe outfit I bought. I gather they were used as boring tools in the lantern-type toolpost, but in reality may have come from an uprighting tool or something like this.
     
  13. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    Eberhard,

    Yes, they are intended for holding long pivot of the fourth i.e. seconds wheel, indeed a safety female centre variety. Look at Nr. 13, shown are few on the right hand side.

    11.jpg

    Cheers, Dushan
     
  14. wefalck

    wefalck Registered User

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    Thanks, Dushan. Learned something again, as I have to work from time to time on long, slender parts, that will come handy.
     
  15. Jerry Kieffer

    Jerry Kieffer Registered User
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    #15 Jerry Kieffer, May 6, 2020
    Last edited: May 6, 2020
    Richard
    With the exception of the collet and cutter, these tools have the appearance of shop made tools also per Wafaick`s comment. Unless of course a reference can be found in publications. If shop made, it is unlikely anyone will know what they were actually used for. As an example, when constructing watch parts, I have made a number of tools such as in the attached photo, but other than myself, their use will be a mystery especially the one on the right. At this point one can only speculate how your tools could have been used.

    I have a couple of threaded collets per your first photo, so I know they are likely commercial. I have also seen many examples of the cutter shown in the second photo for sale by used machine tool venders.
    In most cases they have been modified or made up for production but occasionally I have seen similar commercial versions. What I have seen has been listed next to core drills for reference.

    One example of its use given their size, and this would not be my choice for this, on second or third operation the cutter could be used to create a elevated bearing surface per the center wheel location or used similar to a core drill.

    Jerry Kieffer

    fullsizeoutput_5b2.jpeg fullsizeoutput_5b0.jpeg
     
  16. D.th.munroe

    D.th.munroe Registered User

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    I have a few identical pieces for that lathe I have all the rose cutters, collets, runners and bits and pieces but no actual lathe.
    Do the what appear to be screw head laps in the top left of your case fit the large threaded collet?

    I believe the rose cutters and lever are for roughing out screws as explained by Saunier here (443) and the lathe in fig 10, the fig 10 plate xiii is just a screw.
    Dan

    1588865663300171965440581938660.jpg 15888657253143519771788002343879.jpg
     
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  17. Dushan Grujich

    Dushan Grujich Registered User

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    #17 Dushan Grujich, May 7, 2020
    Last edited: May 7, 2020
    G'Day Dan!

    I would say that there is no question about it. Description by Saunier coincides with what is in the description of the Lorch catalogue from year 1898, although written in German:
    "Fräsen zum Anfräsen von Zapfen, Schrauben u. s. w. Dieselben werden in Verbindung mit den Einrichtungen No. 13, 15, 45 oder 46 benutzt..." - Rose cutters (milling cutters) for milling pivots, screws etc. The Rose cutters were supplied in a set of 20 with diameters from 0.4 to 2.2 mm, as well as a set of 8 with diameters from 2.3 to 3.0 mm.

    Cheers, Dushan


    18.jpg
     

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