Tourbillon

[Tom McIntyre]

Actually, it could be either, but it looks like a karrusel.

The carriage of a karrusel is an idler driven by the watch train. The carriage of a tourbillon is a wheel in the watch train.

You can't really tell from a picture between a karrusel and a flying tourbillon. If a karrusel, the carriage should revolve in 52.5 minutes. If a tourbillon it should revolve in 6 to 12 minutes.

A non-running tourbillon was sold at Sotheby's last year as a karrusel and they buyer did not know until the watch was in for repair and adjustment.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web

 

[Dr. Jon]

Tourbillion

My vote is for a 6 minute Tourbillion. The Karrusels I have seen did not have raised mainspring barrels and the plate shapes were not as ornate.

In the other hand the table looks like a karrusel.

So wind it up and see how she turns.

Dr. Jon

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Tourbillion

Doc Jon, this one is a karussel.

Fancy Karussel

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web

 

[Dr. Jon]

Tourbillion

Tom

You have me on the raised barrel but the plates are still different from this other one.

Still the raised barrel requries a non Bonnikson Plate so this one could be too. Barraud also did a keyless Fusee Karussel.IN this era at this quality level ANYTHING is possible, which I why I ventured my though as a vote rather than staking my already shaky reputation on it.

BTW I have an '88 auction catalog with both an 6 minute Tourbillion in it AND a keyless fusee Karussel. Want to see it in Wocester?

Dr. Jon

 

[Jon Hanson]

Tourbillion

Karussel

Jon Hanson, NAWCC #8801
Founder and President Chapter 149, The Early American Watch Club

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Tourbillion

Doc Jon, The one pictured is the keyless fusee karussel. I will miss Worcester. I am going to be in Mesa AZ this weekend.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web

 

[Dr. Jon]

Tourbillion

Tom and Jon

Thanks. I have done enough research to see that it is a karrusel.

From the picture it does not seem to he a fusee version however. Look forward to an update from Craig with teh real scoop.

Dr. Jon

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Tourbillion

Having the dial with the rating marks is especially nice. Smith was a retailer, of course, but sold some of the very best English watches.

Tom McIntyre
NAWCC 2nd VP
Tommy the JOAT's Web

 

[HenryB]

Tourbillion

OK I will bite.

The dial is very beautiful.

I see a 187-7 and then that wonderful dial mark around the second hand "Especially Good Class A
-87-4".

Can someone explain the significance of the dial marks.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Tourbillion

87.4 marks is a very good Kew Score and 100 was perfection. Smith claimed that 85.4 was the world record circa 1910 for a non magnetizable watch and especially good required a score over 75 (I am not sure on this and Jon H and Tom M will no doubt pounce if I have this wrong) YOur watch had to be one of the ten most accurate in the world when under warantee.

Nichole Neilson guaranteed that their Tourbillions would do better than 90 marks but most tourbillions woudl not do this well.

87.4 was a breathtaking score, well worthy of marking on the dial.

Dr. Jon

 

[David Penney]

Tourbillion

Your watch is indeed a Bonniksen type karrusel, as distinguished by the Smith & Sons serial number. It is Class 188 (revolving escapement) of which this watch is number 357. It has a free-sprung, but not non-magnetic, lever escapement. 18ct gold cased examples are priced at £55 in Smith & Son's Catalogue (3rd edition) of circa 1900.

The Marks on the dial refer to those awarded at the English annual Kew Observatory Trials. Your watch came 29th in the 1904 trials, the winner that year (Golay) having a top mark of 93.2. The best karrusel, entered by Bonniksen, had a mark of 92.2

For those interested in this type of watch, I am just finishing the preparation of a small but very well researched publication on the work of Bahne Bonniksen, inventor of the karrusel. Written by Dr Clare Woodward, I hope to have it ready for sale later this year. It will contain very useful check lists of known examples, as well as much other information.

Lastly, it is perhaps worth noting that both tourbillons and karrusels can be found that revolve either fast or slow. The only mechanical difference is that in the tourbillon, as first made by Breguet based on an idea by John Arnold, the mainspring only drives the carriage. The escapement within the carrige operates as the escape wheel pinion is pushed around a stationary wheel fixed to the pillar plate. In a karrusel the mainspring is used to drive both the carriage AND the escapement. If you stop the carriage, the watch would continue to run.

Designs of both have their good and bad points, the chief difference in present day value being the finish given to their construction - and the fact that owners love to watch a fast moving carriage.

David Penney
www.antiquewatchstore.com

 

[nomorewatch]

Re: Tourbillion

87.4 marks is a very good Kew Score and 100 was perfection. Smith claimed that 85.4 was the world record circa 1910 for a non magnetizable watch and especially good required a score over 75 (I am not sure on this and Jon H and Tom M will no doubt pounce if I have this wrong) YOur watch had to be one of the ten most accurate in the world when under warantee.

Nichole Neilson guaranteed that their Tourbillions would do better than 90 marks but most tourbillions woudl not do this well.

87.4 was a breathtaking score, well worthy of marking on the dial.

Dr. Jon

Which piece of chronometer watch obtained the highest score from Kew in history and what's that piece? I am curious

 

[Jim Haney]

Re: Tourbillion

nomorewatch, This thread is 9 years old and belongs in the European forum,so i am moving it there.
Thanks