Today's Mystery Adventure/Questions...

MuseChaser

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Wish I could be more descriptive in the title, but I have no idea of the maker of this clock or movement. I'm sure it's nothing valuable, other than it's certainly presenting another great opportunity to learn stuff...

OK... Here's the front of the movement...

Front.jpg

Please excuse the 2x4s... Ummm.. I mean, .. my excellent disassembly/assembly stand...

and here's the back...

Back.jpg

Here's a nice closeup of the suspension spring saddle. Sometimes I hate people... why.... just.... WHY!?!?!?

WhyJustWhy.jpg

OK... here's the open barrel for the strike spring... I think this spring looks salvageable no problem, right?...

ShouldntBeAProblem.jpg

Yep... it'll be fine....

LooksFixable.jpg

FUN, huh? The time spring was broken too, but nowhere near as ... ummm... thoroughly? Hard to imagine what caused THAT. In any case, one more picture of a broken tone rod, then a few questions....

BrokenRod.jpg

OK.. the movement, otherwise, is actually in pretty good shape other than way over-oiled and filthy. The springs I can deal with. The soldered-on suspension spring.. just heat it back up and yank it out of there? And... the chime (OK, "bim-bam rod?" What is it called? There's three of them, and the other two are fine) rod that broke off... how is held in that mounting screw pictured between my thumb and middle finger? I tried to tap it out from the back side, but it wouldn't budge. Of course, I was using a push-pin and small hammer to tap it out, and the pushpin wasn't up to the task, but I don't have any punches small enough to fit. It LOOKS like it's just a friction fit ("stake?".. still learning the terminology), but I thought it'd come out easier.

I disassembled and reassemble PRETTY much the entire movement, except for two arbors.. the center/hand arbor, and one other arbor on the strike side that seemed permanently attached to the front plate due to wheels/cams/pinions on both sides of the plate. Does one usually leave them in the plate, or is standard procedure to somehow remove them for cleaning while refurbishing a movement? Who made this movement? Approximate year?

Thanks again for all the help and encouragement. Still having a great time learning. Still haven't built a spring winder. Still too chicken to hand-bush my ST 89.

Best to all.
 

Willie X

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muse,
Check the 2nd arbors and pinons very closely. They are often damaged by things like this. Even a cut steel pinion can be damaged. The best way to check out the situation is to put the 1st arbor/barrel assemply and 2nd wheel in place between the plates and apply some pressure to the barrel while controlling a slow roll of the second wheel with finger pressure on the second arbor A bent (or damaged) part will usually be obvious but sometimes the damage is so slight that it can only be felt as a slight click (or stumble) in the rotation. Willie X
 
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MuseChaser

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Thank you, Willie...I'll give it another very thorough looking over using your test method. I was encouraged when I reassembled it without the springs in the barrels; the pivots all stood fairly upright but freely in their holes, making the alignment and reassembly of the plates much easier than the totally shot ST 89 I'm also currently working on, and the time train, without the verge/anchor, ran quite easily, smoothly, and quietly with very little finger pressure on the mainspring barrel, and with very little pivot play. I need a new suspension spring as well as mainsprings, and whatever the rod is called that hooks on the pin of thr suspension spring, goes through the crutch, and provides a hook for the adjustable bob rod to connect to. The refurbishment/refinishing of the case is coming along nicely, too...will post a pic soon.

Would love to know what this movement is...can't find it in Conover's Striking Clocms book. It has three hammers, with two of the linked together on one arbor. Anyine have any info?
 

shutterbug

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You can get a new chime rod from any supplier. Just match the length. Tuning is not quite as critical on bim bams. The come in two thread sizes too, so check that.
 

MuseChaser

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You can get a new chime rod from any supplier. Just match the length. Tuning is not quite as critical on bim bams. The come in two thread sizes too, so check that.
Thanks, shutterbug. If I understand correctly, the chime rod comes already attached to the threaded fitting as a "unit," and there's no way to get out the broken piece in the threaded fitting I have and re-stake (if that's the right word) the chime rod I have back into that fitting?

Could the movement be an earlier FHS (hermle) 141 type?
I have NO idea. Still VERY green at this. I'll see if I can find pictures of the movement to which you referred and compare them. Thank you!

An update... this morning, I annealed, shaped, drilled, and filed a new hole into the end of the time mainspring; that one only had one 8" broken off at the end that anchors on the barrel wall. That went well, and I managed to wrestle it back into the barrel by hand (I know, I know.... build a winder. Working on it!). Put it back in the movement, pulled the verge, gave it a few clicks, and it ran very smoothly almost immediately. Hopefully, Willie X, that should mean that the 2nd wheel arbors and pinions are OK.. but I'll keep an eye on them as I continue working on this clock.

I also got out the soldered in (?!?!! Again... WHY!?!?!?) suspension spring top block, but one of the two small spring straps was already broken (and someone had tried to solder that broken SPRING back together... umm.. dude... solder's not meant to flex) and the other strap broke. I needed a new suspension spring anyway, but now I REALLY need one. The existing one appears to have a bottom block that's 7mm square, and a top bock that's 8mm W x 6mm H. The overall length of the unit is about 18mm. Hole in top block to allow it to be pinned in the saddle, and a pin on the bottom for the pendulum extension rod or whatever it's called.

I have a spare 19mm wide mainspring on hand from another clock that I replaced, but it turned out to be OK, and I was going to try it in this clock as the chime mainspring, but it's too wide. The existing spring is 17.5 mm or 11/16" . No idea what the length or thickness is.. too many pieces to guess on length, and I don't have a caliper to measure thickness. Anyone have a good educated guess as to what I need?

One last issue that became evident now that the time chain is functional (except for the suspension spring). Sadly, the center arbor in front of the front face to which the hands attach is bent. As the clock runs, the eccentricity is pretty obvious. Bummed. What's the best way to straighten it? I can take off the the cannon pinion with the snail on it and the gear behind it, but there's still a two-lobed came and pinion behind that keeping the arbor captive in the front plate. I've read the other thread about how to pull it, or how to remove it using a hollowed out punch and a staking block, but if there's a way to straighten it without doing that, I'd like to try rather than risk causing more damage than what's already damaged... the part of the arbor between the two plates looks like it's rotating without any wobble.. it's just the part extending forward of the front plate. I'm guessing the clock probably was dropped on it's face at some point; the minute hand is broken off and mostly missing, the aforementioned shaft is bent, there's no protective glass or bezel on the front of this clock by design, and you've seen the damage to the springs. The case restoration is coming out VERY nice, fortunately.

So, short version... What sized spring for chime barrel? What suspension spring? How do I straighten a bent hand arbor?

Thanks again for all the help, you folks!
 

shutterbug

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It is possible to drill out the old piece and reshape the exiting rod on a lathe and insert it again. But the end result is often a bad sounding rod. The replacements come attached and just thread them in. You may need an impact wrench to get the old one out. They are in there TIGHT!
 

Wayne A

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OK... here's the open barrel for the strike spring... I think this spring looks salvageable no problem, right?...

ShouldntBeAProblem.jpg
ShouldntBeAProblem.jpg
Seems like most of the broken springs in barrels I find are like this, shattered in at least several pieces. Have never read any theories why this happens so I called it a pop-eye moment, "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more", boom! Only thing I can see is the original break lets the spring run free building inertia and then gets stuck then breaks again repeat.
 

Willie X

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Shattered springs are not that common. You're just lucky, I guess. :) Willie X
 

shutterbug

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If the spring breaks at the outer end, it just flaps around in the barrel and doesn't usually do too much damage. But when the inner end breaks, the expansion is instantaneous, and brutal. The shock waves set in motion within the spring will often cause multiple breaks like that. There's a thread on here someplace that has a little contest going on how many pieces it broke into :)
 

MuseChaser

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Shattered springs are not that common. You're just lucky, I guess. :) Willie X
Given the rest of my life experiences, I highly doubt I'm lucky....hehehehehe. Probably just extremely inexperienced. These were the fourth and fifth broken springs I've come across so far in my clock repair journey's infancy.

While I'm here, if I can put in one more plea for recommendations/info on...

1. Strike mainspring thickness and length?
2. Maker/identification/date of movement?
3. Suspension spring? I've found units that measure and will fit,but again I'm unsure of thickness.

Thanks so much for the help! Currently working on getting the strike and chime to work correctly on a Session two-train chime. If I can't get it working with Conover's.help, I'll start another thread.

Best to all, and thank you!
 

Willie X

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I held the unofficial record at 41 pieces for a good while. Then that record was "shattered" when someone posted around 80 (?) pieces. So, maybe you should count up the shards and at least see where you stand. Willie X
 

MuseChaser

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Well, it's been a while and I've tackled and completed a bunch of less challenging projects, so I got back to this clock a few days ago. New springs, new suspension spring and new leader, refinished case, new hands, new lowest tone chime rod installed and tuned, and lots of learning and tribulation, as usual, trying to get the strike components to line up correctly. Some pictures are above for referral, but I can take more specific ones if needed to help with the following questions, should anyone be willing. The clock is keeping time nice and steady, and sounds beautiful (interesting bim-bam.... a single "sol" for the bim, then a simulteous double hammer "mi" and "do"" for the bam).

A couple issues/questions....

1. When I move the minute hand to set the time, it is VERY stiff, and the tick-tock sounds like it's protesting.... it gets VERY loud, i.e., "tick tock tick tock....TICKTOCKTICKTOCK!!!!!!!!" while the hand is being moved. Sometimes it even stops. A gentle push of the pendulum gets it going again nice and steady every time. I am moving the minute hand clockwise, and stopping at the half- and hour marks to allow the strikes to complete. What's going on?

2. In the process of adjusting the hammer tail-lifting star wheel, it became so loose that it wouldn't hold its position. Here's where a pic may be helpful, but I'll try and describe it. THe blued steel wheel is sandwiched on the arbor by smalll brass discs, with one thicker than the other. I've pressed those discs together with plliers and they're holding, but if I turn the star again, it immediately loosens up. How should I deal with this?

3. The gathering pallet was also removed to free the arbor for cleaning, then repleced to align with the locking lever and rack correctly and pressed onto the arbor. It, too, became loose and resulted in the clock striking nonstop yesterday. Pulled the movement, readjusted, and pressed it on with a bit more force this time. Not sure how to properly stake it in place.... concerned with putting too much force on the shoulder of the arbor and opposite place. How is it usually done?

4. The clock is back together and working again, but it strikes 13 times every hour regardless of hour. Once I pull the movement again, I'm sure I can see why and figure that out.... but if anyone wants to give me a heads up.... great!!

Thanks again.
 
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MuseChaser

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Here's the completed clock. I STILL have no idea who/what/where made this clock.... anyone? Pics of the movement are in the first post.

MysteryComplete.jpg
 

shutterbug

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The clutch is tight, which makes the minute hand hard to move. A little oil on the crutch might help there. The louder ticking is because when you are setting the hands, you are actually adding power to the train. It's probably not hurting anything.
The star wheel has to be staked in place. You won't likely get enough power or leverage from pliers.
The GP can be tapped into place with a small hollow punch, even with a small screwdriver blade. But be careful not to bend the arbor.
The 13 strike problem is more than likely the rack tail missing the snail. Check to be sure the washer on top of the minute wheel is big enough to prevent the hour cannon from moving.
 
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MuseChaser

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The clutch is tight, which makes the minute hand hard to move. A little oil on the crutch might help there. The louder ticking is because when you are setting the hands, you are actually adding power to the train. It's probably not hurting anything.
The star wheel has to be staked in place. You won't likely get enough power or leverage from pliers.
The GP can be tapped into place with a small hollow punch, even with a small screwdriver blade. But be careful not to bend the arbor.
The 13 strike problem is more than likely the rack tail missing the snail. Check to be sure the washer on top of the minute wheel is big enough to prevent the hour cannon from moving.
Thanks again, SB. Sure wish I could write my questions as clearly, concisely, and accurately as you write your answers! Will open it back up today and apply your fixes.

I would still love to know the maker and approximate year of manufacture of this movement and clock; it's the only one I own that's still a total mystery to me. I'm sure it's nothing rare or valuable....nothing can disappoint me...just curious if anyone knows.
 

shutterbug

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If I were to venture a guess, I'd say it was made in Germany, between the great wars. That's about the best I can do :)
 
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MuseChaser

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Well, that's way more than I had...thanks! The face and case shape has kind of an Art Deco vibe, similar to a 1932 Kern 400-day we have....your guess certainly makes stylistic sense.
 

MuseChaser

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...
The 13 strike problem is more than likely the rack tail missing the snail. Check to be sure the washer on top of the minute wheel is big enough to prevent the hour cannon from moving.
Dead on accurate, as usual. The rack tail was, indeed, falling behind the snail instead of landing on it. There wasn't a washer on top of the minute wheel when I disassembled it the first time, and that would have solved the issue. I had to file down (i.e., make larger) the square opening in the bushing of the replacement minute hand I bought to replace the missing hand, but I did it cautiously and stopped just when it grabbed the square arbor. I opened it up more so it would seat deeper, and it's holding the minute wheel in place now fine on it's own. I'm glad.. 'cause I didn't have a washer on hand that fit.

Once I solved THAT, and ran a test cycle, it struck twelve times at 10, 11, and 12 o'clock... but at least 1-9 were correct! I moved the snail/hour wheel one tooth to get the rack tail to land exactly in the middle of each "landing," and it's running perfectly now. Very happy... thanks again, SB!
 

shutterbug

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:thumb: Good job!
 

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