Today I started casting brass for my verge reconversion

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by P.Hageman, Jul 22, 2017.

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  1. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Today I startted casting yellow brass for the parts I need for my next project the reconversion from anchor escapement back to verge of my 18th century English bracket clock. I was very curious how the result would be. I used old 18th century scrap movement plates etc from scrap English clocks which I had collected over the years. The cast brass looks very good, right color, no casting faults, realy nice homogene yellow brass. On the last picture you can see the already turned part which will be the crownwheel when ready. I like this project :coolsign: 311202.jpg 311203.jpg 311204.jpg 311201.jpg
     
  2. woodlawndon

    woodlawndon Registered User
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    This is impressive, please keep us updated.
     
  3. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Excellent stuff, you will be doing spandrels before you know it! :)
     
  4. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Nice work:coolsign:
    Incredibly satisfying isn't it! A friend and I have done this to make main wheel bushing rods for English longcase plates.
     
  5. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    I think I will make this an ongoing thread of my reconversion project if you like. Today I started milling the potence cast square. Oh and Nick, casting spandrels is way to difficult at the present moment :clap: I am only just an amateur! 311258.jpg 311259.jpg
     
  6. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Starting to look like a potence. 311269.jpg
     
  7. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    ​Amateur:???:
    BAH HUMBUG

    Don't sell yourself short!!
    This is very impressive, and I for one look forward to following your conversion with great enthusiasm.
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    You are doing remarkably well, and I think spandrels are at the lower end of casting. I think they are made by impressing a previous one into the moulding sand. The dips on the back are shrinkage as far as I can see, they seem to be a very simple process, and said to be one sometimes carried out by clockmakers themselves whereas they would by in other castings
     
  9. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Today I started with the upper potence (is that how you call this part:???:). It is still a bit oversized, but after I have the crownwheel ready, I can make it into the final shape. Its a lot of fun. But days to come, I have to work, so not much time for this project. 311363.jpg 311364.jpg
     
  10. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Today I started cutting the crownwheel. I hammer hardened the brass blank and made a single point fly cutter from what we call silver steel. Hardened the cutter at 850 degrees and then tempered at 250 degrees. For the first try, I think the result is encouraging :chuckling: I have to finish the theeth and see if it will work. 311691.jpg 311692.jpg 311693.jpg 311694.jpg
     
  11. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    Wow!!!
    Good luck with Your progress,whish I could do that!
    Burkhard
     
  12. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Great progress...

    Ralph
     
  13. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Turned the contrate wheel to approx. size and made a jig to hammer harden the rim of the contratewheel. After that the rim sounds like a bell :coolsign: Now I have to make the very small single point cutter for cutting the teeth in the contratewheel. Wish me luck :excited: Sorry for the poor quality of the picture, my camera battery was low so I made it with my phone. 311763.jpg
     
  14. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    This is sure an interesting journey your taking us on. This is what Repair & Restoration is all about. Anyone can pick up a replacement part & install it (within reason). But how many people can make the mold, cast the part, machine & finish the part, and put the item back in good working order.

    I always enjoy doing repairs restorations.
    Plus, sometimes I get the added benefit of having a legitimate excuse to buy a new Kool Tool to complete the task.
    The closest I've ever come to casting a part is pouring fishing weights. But I look forward to trying my hand at it sometime in the future.

    Thanks for sharing!
     
  15. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    Hageman,

    Very interesting and well done.. Can you give us a few details on the mold making process and the smelting of brass. what did you use to melt the brass? sorry if this is obvious but I am not familiar with this.

    Joe
     
  16. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Hi Joe, For the castings I first make wooden templates and then press them into casting sand (mixture of fine sand and oil). After that I melt the old pieces of scrapped movements etc in an electric 3 kilogram mini melting furnace, (Goldbrunn) I enclosed a picture of the furnace just before pouring the liquid metal into the casting sand. Hope this helps you.
    Peter 311830.jpg
     
  17. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    There are several good guides out there for how to operate a home foundry.
    Such as:
    http://foundry101.com/

    This guy has a lot of great links at his... metal sheds page?
    https://store.alansfactoryoutlet.com/Guide-to-DIY-Metal-Casting-s/1876.htm
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    We have a foundry and a forge at school but there are never used.
     
  19. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    When I was in High School and taking industrial arts, some 40 years ago, the other Teacher's Assistant didn't notice that the prior class had washed the slag removal ladle in the sink.
    When he dipped it into the molten crucible of aluminum to pull out the old piston rings and whatnot, the moisture flashed and aluminum exploded out of the furnace.
    He lost an eye, most of his hair and a lot of skin along with getting molten aluminum in his lungs. The program never recovered after all of the lawsuits. I would assume that such instances affect liability insurance for all schools and they may think it's too much risk.
    It is, however, a pretty fun activity... When nothing goes awry.
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Sounds scary, no we are not quite as litigious yet. It's all fairly modern equipment, we just don't teach that any more and so it doesn't get used. We have a design and technology building that is the newest part of the school but cutbacks and curriculum changes and made some of it redundant. I'm suggesting we do night school lessons.
     
  21. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    A bit of bad luck. I made a single point tooth cutter for the contrate wheel just as I did for the crownwheel and made it as sharp as possible. But due to the fact that the teeth are that small and its only a single point cutter, after cutting the first tooth and starting with the second, I noticed that the first thooth was bending a little bit while cutting the second one. :screwball: The teeth are only 0,85 mm thick so that won't work.......... I realised I had some brand new small circular saw blades laying arround somewhere in my workshop and found one which I now use for cutting the teeth. I am not sure how to get the angled profile at the top of the teeth now. Perhaps I need to file them in shape :confused: 311873.jpg 311874.jpg
     
  22. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Think I did it! Took a some hours work, but its running smooth against the 7 leave pinion :coolsign: What a good feeling Nutjob 311875.jpg
     
  23. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    Were you attempting to cut total depth in one pass with the fly cutter, or multiple passes?
     
  24. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    No, multiple passes with very tiny cuts. Think perhaps something was wrong with the cutter, after all, its a trial and ERROR project :screwball: But I am very happy it worked this way. Best would be a genuine gear cutter but buying a thorton cutter cost a fortune, its my sport to keep the cost within limits. (saving for buying another clock )
     
  25. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Looks wonderful

    You should put a few rings in each time, all the people who loved their work seemed to like adding a bit of decoration (obviously some of the rings are guides for hand cutting)
     
  26. ClipClock

    ClipClock Registered User
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    Wow, well done, I'm very much enjoying following this thread!
     
  27. the 3rd dwarve

    the 3rd dwarve Registered User

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    Mr. Hageman,

    I'm chiming in a little late but next time saw cut the teeth like you did this one. Glue in a plastic plug to support the inner diameter right up to the top land and then use your fly cutter to form the face between the pitch circle and the addendum circle.

    Your work looks top notch and I too am enjoying following your progress.

    I'm curious though. You have machined so much of your cast blanks. Why did you make castings? Why didn't you just start with a brass billet?
    D~
     
  28. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Thanks for this advise, I will surely follow your advice next time!! I did my own castings due to the fact that I wanted exactly the same color brass as used in the 18th century. Now the color of the newly made parts are same color as the rest of the movement. I could buy in yellow cast brass from England but it is costly. I could not find a supplier here in the Netherlands. The brass "chips" that were machined off, I melt again into new parts :)
     
  29. the 3rd dwarve

    the 3rd dwarve Registered User

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    Mr. Hageman,

    That's a lot of work for a color match; I applaud your attention to detail.

    There is some very nice work there.

    Do you grind your cutters from HSS or do you prefer a specific grade like W-1?

    Regards,
    D~
     
  30. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #30 novicetimekeeper, Jul 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    It's well worth it, the difference between early 18th century brass and modern brass is quite marked.

    300800.jpg
     
  31. the 3rd dwarve

    the 3rd dwarve Registered User

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  32. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  33. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Cr V3 steel I use. But I am not in to all those different types of metal. This is what was advised, and when hardened mostly it works fine.
     
  34. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    The contrate wheel found its place. Mounted it on its arbor and it running smootly. Next step is the verge to mount on its arbor. :) 312181.jpg
     
  35. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    wow,great stuff!Congrats!!
    Burkhard
     
  36. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    hi, moving right along. the wheel looks very much at home. do you have photos of before so we can see what you are replacing and what the conversion looked like? perhaps side by side photos?

    Joe
     
  37. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Hmm, never thought about that :screwball:
     
  38. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Made a jig from aluminium to hold the vergewheel and protect the theeth while cutting and filing the spokes into place. The jig holds the wheel firm and I can file towards the inner edge of the jig to get a nice round diameter which is exactly the right diameter (I hope Nutjob) 312272.jpg 312273.jpg 312274.jpg
     
  39. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    A bit busy last days, but yesterday found some time to get the spokes into the verge. Starting to look like a real thing :) 312912.jpg
     
  40. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    A beautiful crown-wheel!:coolsign:
    Are you using the original/old arbors?

    Aitor
     
  41. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    What do you use for filing? I think it was RJ (in the repair forum) who modified a sewing machine to hold the file and provide the 'muscle' for the job.
     
  42. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    I use the ordinary handheld files, nothing special. I have not amounts of this type of work, so keeping the cost down as well.

    @Aitor, I made calculations so I can use the old original arbors and pinions.
    I
     
  43. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    So, next step will be making the pallet-arbor, knife edge suspension and pendulem :screwball: Later on I will cross out the contrate wheel. After that if I have it started running, I will then finish all the parts to the "London standard" :chuckling: Looking forward for these steps. 312965.jpg
     
  44. BLKBEARD

    BLKBEARD Registered User

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    Very Kool
    A nice bit of machining.
     
  45. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    are you going to reduce the cock for the crown wheel arbour later? It is going to obscure all your fine work.

    It is fantastic work you are doing putting the movement back to verge, I love them.
     
  46. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Yes Nick, after everything is working the way it should I will finish several parts "London standard" :)
    Y
     
  47. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    #47 novicetimekeeper, Aug 10, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    ah that's what you meant by London standard. I was looking at Mr Post as I don't have much for comparison

    307643.jpg
     
  48. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    #48 P.Hageman, Aug 10, 2017
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    Yep, indeed. Hope my movement will look as clean as that one after I finished the job.
     
  49. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yours will be one up, you will have an engraved apron
     
  50. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    First stage of the new pallets. Had given it a thought on how to machine them and cam up with this solution. The complete arbor with pallets and knife edge will be made from 4 pieces and silver solderd together then. 313128.jpg
     

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