Tobias with Breuget Shock absorber like an Incabloc and a Compensation Curb.

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Omexa, Jun 19, 2017.

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  1. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, inside a truly Horrific Case with a "Patent" sic movement securing device, this Parachute movement needed rescuing. It looks like a Classy movement, the Dial has "Tobias" on it and I wonder if it is a Swiss movement sold by Tobias as they got nearer to closing? It has a rather elaborate Ratchet assembly on the Winder and the Plate under the Bridges has a nice mottled appearance. It has a very long Lever and a Strange Balance with equidistance Balance Screws. I hope that the Breuget Shock absorber has done its job and the Balance Pivots are OK? Now ideas on who made it, approximate Date and when did M I Tobias close assuming that it came from their Shop? Regards Ray View attachment 347298 View attachment 347299
     
  2. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #2 Omexa, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
    Hi, I just noticed something on the Winder bridge, what may be a Makers Logo? I will have to wait until I can remove it from the Case. Regards Ray View attachment 347331 .
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I just found this from eri231 "the parechute (shockproof) and the thermal compensation invented by Breguet are rarely used in Switzerland. In fact, this is a French Ebauches of Besancon area. a nearly identical is depicted in the book "La Montre Francais" of Chapiro." So it may be of French origin? Regards Ray
     
  4. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, it looks like I have some other ones buried somewhere. https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?99828- Arnold-Adams-Co-London-Detached-Lever-13-Jewels-Parachute-and-Compensation &highlight=parachute+omexa Regards Ray
     
  5. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    #5 Dr. Jon, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    Very interesting watch but I an suspicious that it is fake. Ofr openers iI am suspicious off all watches signed by this "maker". The photo is not enough to tell for sure but the compensator looks to be a simple piece of brass and not bimetallic and the parachute is very heavy. The bimetallic on the compensators is hard to see under the best of circumstances so the photo is not proof it's wrong.

    The parachute, o work ,it has to be delicate and resilient.This example looks too thick and clumsy to function. It may be thin but not in the direction of the photo. It looks crude to me, especially compared to others including your Arnold Adams.

    If this is a fake, it is the first counterfeit of these I have seen and I had no idea they did this (if infact they did).

    I
     
  6. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #6 Omexa, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    Hi Dr. Jon, it seems to me to be an awful lot of work to do to make a "Fake"? Just a plain Balance Cock assembly would be sufficient to make a saleable "Fake"
    Pocket Watch. It is interesting that all the photos from this seller have a red tinge on the shiny bits which do not make the movement look very nice. I am hoping that when I receive it my supposition that the Balance and other parts are nice and shiny are true. I will have a go with Photoshop to see if I can make the shiny bits a bit more attractive. I just thought that because it is in another Case it may not be the Original Dial. Regards Ray
     
  7. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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  8. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    Isn't "Arnold Adams" a fictitious name anyway?

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  9. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham, from Les Harland: "Loomes Watchmakers and Clockmakers of the World only has one entry Adams Arnold and co London 19c."
     
  10. Benjamin E.

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    Both those parechutes are non-functional, it looks like. There's no split opposite the round kink; it's solid all the way through.
    Arnold Adams is a mix of the names of two well known London firms: Arnold and F.B. Adams. I don't believe there was any merger of the firms, just someone piggybacking off their success.
     
  11. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #11 Omexa, Jun 21, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2017
    Hi Benjamin E., could you please show a photo of what you mean? I have found some others with a split and some without? Regards Ray
     
  12. Benjamin E.

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    https://mb.nawcc.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=343435&d=1494544922

    It's right above the screw to the right of the balance jewel. It's what allows the parechute to flex and suspend the staff. Breguet's later watches had a different kind of elastic suspension. For a good illustration of this, see Habsburg's auction catalog and "Breguet: Art and Innovation in Watchmaking", the catalog of the Breguet exhibit at the San Fransisco Legion D'Honneur.
     
  13. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, I understand, but are there variations on a theme? Without the split it would work in one direction only (at right angles to the Balance Cock) and with the split it would work in two directions (at right angles to the Balance Cock and along the Balance Cock View attachment 347545 View attachment 347546 as well). Regards Ray
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Benjamin,

    I think you're right, there was certainly no merger of these two companies; John Roger Arnold was in partnership with Edward John Dent between 1830 and 1840, and after Arnold's death in 1843 Charles Frodsham bought the name and stock in trade. No suggestion of Swiss manufactured movements! F.B. Adams made high quality watches and chronometers in Clerkenwell.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  15. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    There are so many "Arnold Adams", Pocket Watches around, in 100's if not 1000's surely the Swiss Company would have had a London office? Regards Ray
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    To quote a highly respected authority, (one D. Penney):

    "Swiss manufacturers spent much of the 18th and early nineteenth century making English-style watches, many of which were sold bearing fake 'London' names into various markets around the world. Liverpool looking watches, like this, were aimed at the American market where fake names such as 'Arnold' and 'Arnold Adams' were regularly used. This highly dubious practice, one that went on for the best part of two hundred years, is one that the Swiss try hard now to ignore - which may perhaps come as no surprise. That said, fake watches like this had a great effect on the business of watchmaking worldwide and every collection should have an example, but they should also be recognised for what they are - fakes!"

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  17. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi Graham, I think that you misunderstood me; I meant an office in London selling Fakes! Regards Ray
     
  18. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, an interesting thing is that in my searches for Arnold Adams & Co. I have found a few Solid Gold American Cased Pocket Watches.
    View attachment 347576 Regards Ray
     
  19. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    Here is a view of a functional parachute

    [​IMG]

    The red arrow poin tsto th cut Graham mentioned. The green arrow shows where the spring has been thinned to make it supple and the blue arrow indicates cap with is a separate part attached with a screw. Note also that the entire spring is nicely beveled and polished

    This is high level, expensive, workmanship.

    What I had not realized until this thread was that it was highly enough regarded that it was counterfeited. the interesting question to me is who were they trying to fool?.
     
  20. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #20 Omexa, Jun 22, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2017
    Hi Dr. Jon and others, what I can't understand is if they, whoever they were, went to the trouble to make the part and Spring Steel is not unknown in Switzerland why didn't they cut the slot and thin it to make it work? It didn't work as a Shock Absorber on my Fake movement, my fumble fingered mate dropped mine a short distance onto the Bench and a Balance Pivot broke. Thanks Dr. Jon, I will now be keeping my eye out for a Genuine Pocket Watch or movement. Regards Ray
     
  21. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Looking at the big Auction site there are 3 for sale by Edouard Favre Brandt. No Slot? Regards Ray
     
  22. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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  23. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, it is hard to get a photo of it but the Compensation Curb is Bi-metallic. It looks like Highly polished Steel on the outside curve. Regards Ray View attachment 349867
     
  24. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    #24 Omexa, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
  25. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User

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    Hi, for those that are interested, here it is with a Mainspring fitted and running nicely. I have a Jacot with the same layout on the Pillar Plate under the Dial. Regards Ray View attachment 349917 View attachment 349918
     
  26. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    This looks pretty nice. The "real" Breguet parachute and compensated watches, inmy experience are very well made.. This looks to be very late example and Swiss so I doubt were any patnet issues.

    The eduard Favre Brandt watches I have seen are very fine.
     
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