To bush? round hole, pivot question, gear question

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Lynsey, Nov 19, 2019.

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  1. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
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    Good Evening, Ladies and Gentlemen. For you tonight I have a ST Sharon movement A208-002. Being it came apart prematurely on me, I present these pictures.

    Question 1: It seems to me that the Escape Wheel is a bit sloppy and it should be bushed. I have taken 2 pictures on two different sides for your viewing pleasure. Is there a hard and fast rule as to the amount of slop that is acceptable?

    Question 2: The hole seems very round, just too big. Is this common? All I ever hear about is the elongations.

    Question 3: The pivot on that EW seems skinnier at the top end, with a bump on top of that. Sorry, the pic is really focused on the pinion question. As well, the EW has what seems to be a pinion on top of a pinion. The upper pinion gives me the impression that it is worn out. Sorry if question is dumb, I am crosseyed at this juncture from fiddling with it.

    This is the clock that is not mine, but have received the go-ahead to do whatever it needs, whenever. The owner knows I am in the experimentation/learning curve and is fine with that. I think I am going to get into the Waterbury or PHS first and do my slicing and dicing on those, gaining experience, afore I operate on the Sharon. So, given all of this, I guess I am asking for opinions on sizes of broaches, pin vises, bushings and smoothers for New Haven Banjo Clocks and ST Mantle Clocks. I don't mind buying a set if it is cost efficient, but I don't know what sizes I am likely to encounter. Thanks so much in advance. Lynsey

    20191119_170000_resized.jpg 20191119_170118_resized.jpg 20191119_170353_resized.jpg 20191119_170631_resized.jpg 20191119_171428_resized.jpg
     
  2. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I'd suggest that you clean the clock first.
     
  3. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    I suggest you get a lathe you may have to learn how to polish pivots and replace them.
     
  4. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Once the clock is clean this will all become apparent, yes.
     
  5. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yep, you need at least one re-pivot and one bushing at the E-wheel for sure.

    It's common for the top arbors to wear out with very little elongation.

    A KWM #3 reamer and a 1.4mm thick bushing, with a bore of the next size under will do the dead on the pivot hole. The re-pivot, now that's a more complex story ... : smile:

    WIllie X
     
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  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Yes, that pivot is very worn and needs to be replaced. The pivot hole, even though it seems to be still round, also needs to be bushed. There seems to be something in the brass of that pivot hole that has been eating the pivot. You need a smooth new surface.

    Uhralt
     
  7. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Thank you, everyone. As a newbie, I have not cleaned the clock without thoroughly studying it. As I said, it came apart before I was ready for it. I am trying to develop my diagnostic skills with your expert help. I would like to assemble a parts list now, to tackle this when my confidence is higher. If someone wants to trade a Smithy for a good clockmaking lathe, let me know. But until then, unfortunately nothing in the budget for fancy tools until my phone starts ringing.

    Thank you, Willie X, I have the KWM #3 reamer on my list. I hate to ask but "with a bore of the next size under will do the deed on the pivot hole" I do not understand. I am looking at Merritts American Made KWM Brass Bushing chart...I see the bushing for the plate thickness of 1.4 using the #3 reamer, that is LB14...but next size under what, where? Would that be the LB65 which is designed for the #2 reamer, same size plate?
    Also on the list is a set of smoothing tools, handle for the reamer, watch key assortment, and a small assortment of whatever size bushings you think I should have.

    Thank you, Uhralt, I appreciate your input!
     
  8. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    The higher numbers are often for thicker plates. However, this is not always the case. Refer to the KWM charts.
     
  9. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    'Next size under" refers to the bushing's bore. It has to fit the finished pivot. So if the pivot finishes out at 1.5mm you may be OK with a bore of 1.5mm but it would be better to order a pack of bushing with a 1.4 bore diameter. Or better still to order the 10 piece set of bushing all being 1.4mm in height with the OD for a #3 reamer. Bore sizes for this set covers a range of 1mm to 1.9mm.

    Note, the 1mm bore bushing in this set requires a #2 reamer. All the others require a #3 reamer. The #3 KWM reamer is by far the most used reamer for American clocks, probably used for over 95% of the bushings installed.

    WIllie X
     
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  10. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #10 R. Croswell, Nov 20, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
    I've never heard of a clock coming apart "prematurely", I'm guessing that there is an interesting story here as yet untold?

    There is no "hard and fast" rule. Some clocks will tolerate more slop than others. One reasonable guide line is to place the arbor in one plate so it stands upright and see how much it tilts from true vertical. It should tilt the same amount in all directions "north, south, east, and west", and with the upper plate in the assembly position just above, the pivot should be able to be moved about one pivot diameter away from the hole through 360 degrees. You will find some who say x-degrees of tilt, but that depends on the thickness of the plates and of course everyone does not agree on how much is too much. If the arbor tilts more in one direction it indicates that the pivot hole is elongated, or if the hole has already been bushed the bushing may be crooked or may have been broached crooked. You will eventually learn what "feels right". Clocks with thin flimsy plates may require more clearance to compensate for the plates flexing under spring (or weight) tension. Another indication that the pivot hole needs to be bushed is when the pivot can be seen dancing around in the pivot hole as the clock runs, or as hand pressure is applied in both directions to the main wheel.

    Yes, it can happen. In this case it appears that much of the wear is to the pivot. With adequate optics I suspect you will discover that there is also some elongation of the pivot hole as well.


    That arbor was obviously turned from a length of pinion rod. That is, it was originally all pinion. The "upper pinion" isn't a pinion at all but simply what was left after part of the pinion was turned down to create the arbor. You are seeing the what was left of the base of where pinion leaves were. It is normal. Yes, that pivot needs attention. Probably best to replace it but it must be absolutely true or the clock will go in and out of beat as the EW rotates. Opinions will differ, and that pivot is about at the limit, but there isn't much loading on it. You may get away with turning the pivot to a uniform diameter and polishing it. Such work is challenging without a lathe and even with a lathe there is a fairly steep learning curve. You may be able to do an adequate job with a pivot file if you devise a means to rotate the arbor. Nothing to loose as it can't work as it is now.
    Good decision to experience the American clock movements before doing the Sharon. When it comes to bushings, Timesavers or Merritt's can deliver anything you need in about 3 days anywhere in the USA. My recommendation is order what you need (plus extras) for whatever clock you are working on and pretty soon you will have an assortment that matched the kinds of clocks you work on. When it comes to broaches, avoid anything made in India. Broaches with the smallest taper are better. If you purchase a set, get a set that has the most broaches for a given range. Expect to pay a decent price for Swiss or German broaches.

    Before doing any bushing work, I suggest that you read the dozens of threads here describing the pros and cons and strong opinions about what is and is not the "right way" to do it. I'm currently working on a Seth Thomas 124 movement that someone before me bush every pivot hole. That would have been a good thing except every bushing was broached crooked - that is the broached hole is not perpendicular to the plate. It is very challenging (I did not say impossible) to get everything true using strictly hand methods. Often hand broached bushings are fitted looser in an attempt to compensate for inaccurate alignment, which in itself is another potential problem. At the other extreme you could spend $10K to $15K on the best equipment and make just a s big a mess until you learn how to use it properly. One step at a time and keep your eye on the objective regardless of the method used.

    RC

    worn-pivot.jpg
     
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  11. MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

    MARK A. BUTTERWORTH Registered User
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    This movement was made by Hermle and there is a replacement available from several sources. I assume you unintentionally damaged the unit in the "prematurely came apart" part and it is not your own clock. My suggestion would be to replace it your customer and use this movement to learn proper clock repair at your leisure. In the end your will both be happiest and the customer will have a great running clock. The part #141-020/21 front pendulum.
     
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  12. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I agree with this summation.
     
  13. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Smoothing broaches are a good tool, but you dont need one yet. Bushing tools you will always need, the best way to learn bushing is by broaching by hand and learn how to re centre a hole.I hope no really bad damage was caused when the movement came apart.
     
  14. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Lyns,

    Is this the same clock that had the 4 digit S-T date code starting with 67xx?

    If yes, I am curious if you have the old slightly larger style movement with lettered barrels, or the smaller new style movement with numbered barrels. The old style movement is a good candidate for repair, if you can do without replacement parts. The newer style, not so much.

    WIllie X
     
  15. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    From the first photo in this thread, the rounded top corners of the plates indicate the older style movement. But I still have the question on the S-T date stamp. I think all movements were changed by 1970. Willie X
     
  16. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Mr. Butterworth and Mr. Roughbarked, Unintentionaly damaged it? How so? What is damaged that would necessitate a whole new movement? Thank you.
    But thank you for the info on how to get one.

    Willie X - Yes, there was a 6713 underneath the model number. I will report on the barrels when I get into it again. Thank you for your time.

    Mr. Croswell, Yes. An amusing story. I had removed the 2 screws that held the verge assembly in and I turned the movement a little and the two plates separated a little bit, causing the EW to become dislodged from the top plate. I was in the process of photographing and was quite shocked at this turn of events. A bona-fide "Duh" moment for sure. Again, forgive me if I flub the terminology. This was a few days ago and I have been doing tax work since 8am. This clock does not belong to a customer. I have been fiddling with clocks for less than 2 months and have the good sense to not solicit customers. Thank you for your detailed response!

    Kevin- duly noted...less I have to buy!! I was under the assumption that when you broached, you had to smooth afterwards. No damage that I can see, all that happened was that the two plates separated a little bit when I was not expecting it and the EW became dislodged. No falling, no explosions, no snapping, no bending.

    I have spent hours reading all of the articles in this forum, and taking copious notes. There is an endless resource for sure. Those "how to" articles are written beautifully for the newbie to follow!! They are written by folks who take it from step 1. Sometimes we forget where we started and how it felt to be floundering around when beginning a new endeavour. I have written several books directed at teaching the newbie on certain subjects...so I am especially sensitive to the difficulties in which they (and I) have to deal. As an instructor, there is no better moment when you can see the "light bulb" go on when a student grasps the concept! It is much harder to communicate on a message board, and made even more difficult when our imaginations take over.
     
  17. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Smooth broaching is intended to be the final finishing step. The smooth broach should be oiled, preferably with the same oil that will be used oil the clock. After smooth broaching the pivot hole should be pegged and cleaned. If everything else is OK the clock should run whether the pivot hole is smooth broached or not. In my opinion, smooth broaching is an important final step that should not be omitted. There are some who frequently respond to this message board who do not smooth broach and do not agree that it must or should be done. However, my own experience tells me that I get better results when broaching is followed by smooth broaching. I know of no long-term controlled studies comparing pivot holes that were and were not smooth broached after, 10, 20, or more years. I also no of no good reason to skip smooth broaching.

    RC
     
  18. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Thank you, Mr. Croswell. I always figured that when you cut something, you leave a ragged edge, no matter how tiny. Applies to cutting your fingernails, trimming a horse's hooves or dog's nails, sharpening your knives, etc. It cannot hurt unless you overdo it.
     
  19. Peter John

    Peter John Registered User
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    In your first picture, I don’t think the escape wheel goes in that hole. That plate with the 2 screws is for the rear pivot of the verge. The other photo with the escape wheel on the ear on the plate, I think the strike fan goes there. You do need a new pivot on the pinion end of the escapewheel.. I agree with the others, the movement is from 1967. Replace it. You will have nothing but grief trying to repair this one. Peter
     
  20. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    I know that a lathe and mill are a bit off before you buy them, however you do need something to be able to work on pinions as bushing alone will not fix anything if they are not addressed. I suspect you will find some pinions needing done on any of the clocks you have given their age.

    Do you have an overhead drill stand?
     
  21. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    IMOE, smooth broaching may have more of a positive effect on the holes that you didn't bush.

    Remembering to cut a tiny chamfer on the inside edge of all new bushings is also a very important detail. This step is often skipped by even experienced repairers. I guess they enjoy taking their clocks apart so much, they don't mind doing it several extra times. Ha

    WIllie X
     
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  22. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    Nice one Willie, it made me laugh as the apprentice put 2 bushes in the wrong way round and I said well at least they will not rub on the arbour, then told him to do them again.
     
  23. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Lynsey, Peter is correct, I assume that perhaps you just stuck the parts in convenient holes for the picture of the pivots. If not, below is a picture of the 1968 version of the same movement showing where the wheels and pinions go. The verge or anchor is not shown and is added after assembly where Peter described.

    RC

    sharon-movt.jpg
     
  24. JimmyOz

    JimmyOz Registered User

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    This is the ideal tool to do it with.
    CIMG0643.JPG
     
  25. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    From a cost to value delivered to a customer standpoint replacing a worn out movement with an available new one for a clock like this makes a lot of sense. However, there are a lot of learning opportunities here for a beginner who isn't trying to make a profit and has the time to practice. Mostly just needs pivot and bushing work and cleaning, and perhaps a few surprises with the springs and/or worn holes in the spring barrels - all good stuff that everyone in clock repair needs to learn sooner or later all here in one movement. Bottom line, it is repairable even though it may not be practical in a commercial setting.

    RC
     
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  26. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Yes, I thought so and I will attempt that. Hopefully, with the kind support of you folks on this MB.
    I basically saved this from the dumpster and have permission to try and make it work, or not. I will do my best but it may not be my first attempt, maybe when I have one or two under my belt.
    I have a two floor type drill presses.
    Yes, I saw the chamfering tool in the set and will be sure to get one. JimmyOz- Thanks for the picture, now what is it called and where do I obtain one?

    Mr. Croswell, you are correct, I had to demonstrate the poor pivot and had to stick it somewhere for photography's sake. I apologize for not explaining that in the photo and lighting a fire. Thank you soooo much for the photo. I am going to photo my movement to death before I begin further disassembly. I am still a bit rattled as it came apart before I was done photographing it, so thanks again. And thank you for understanding that I am a neophyte without commercial aspirations working on my best friend's clock which she had contemplated tossing in the bin. I appreciate your advice that it can and should be repaired as it's present goal is a learning project. I will nonetheless treat it with care, respect, patience, diligence in order to restore it to working condition!! Back to the how-to's and hints section, thanks to all once again. Lynsey
     
  27. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    It's interesting how different ones of us approach things in different ways. I don't chamfer my bushings and have never had it bite me. I do make sure they are flush with the plates though ;)
     
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  28. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    That is a fact, shutterbug. I once heard the saying 'if all men thought alike, they would all want my squaw.'

    Thank you all for your encouraging support. Gives me renewed enthusiasm and hope to progress with my new hobby! I have a shopful of tools, mostly woodworking based but I am sure some will come in handy and I will slowly collect the proper tools as the needs arise.
     
  29. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    #29 roughbarked, Nov 21, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2019
    :)
    The chamfering bit will quickly dig it's own hole and this can ruin the original reaming by removing too much. Some plates are thinner than others. It is one of those things where if it doesn't need to be done then don't do it but keep in mind that if careful monitoriing can inform that it may need to be done, at least the tool is there to be used.
     
  30. David S

    David S Registered User
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    I am assuming that Willie is suggesting the chamfer on the ID of the bushing on the inside of the plate to make sure that any radius at the junction of the pivot to the arbour doesn't bind in the bushing.

    David
     
  31. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, I believe so, David. I just don't find it necessary.
     
  32. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I'm sure that Willie has seen lots and lots of bushings. Chamfering the bush may or may not be necessary. This will depend upon each particular clock.
    Even KWM may not be perfect in every way. Some reamers may tend to make the hole too loose, some leave them too tight.
     
  33. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Typical man. What of how the squaw thinks?
     
  34. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    Those are my thoughts exactly every time I hear that one. I am learning that there are as many ways to undertake any certain repair job. My assumptions being the differences in which a person has learned a certain skill, the number of times certain techniques have bit them in the kiester, the degree of confidence/foolhardiness or risk-taking one is willing to accept. Oh, what fun this ride will be!!!! Thank you again for sharing your wit and wisdoms.
     
  35. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    As an apprentice, learning skills or being able to demonstrate both that I was skillfully capable enough and willing to learn and practice were all important to my teacher.
    In the initial trial period he gave me an Australian penny and a jewellers saw. "here, cut out the kangaroo for me".
    He had me filing tapered pins in a pinvice until I was proficient at it.
    He also set me sanding down 400 day suspension springs.
    He got married three months after I started. He married the senior sales assistant in the shop. She had several months of long service due and they took an extended honeymoon during which time I was on my own to handle whatever came onto the repair bench. Afterwards I hardly saw him as he was building up his own jewelery manufacturing business. He would call in at about 2pm each day and stay out the back of the shop doing the jewellery repairs.
     
  36. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    Willie, I like your post! I know a clock repairer that NEVER files the worn holes! He just drills out the worn hole, fits a new bushing and broaches to take a snug fitting pivot! The movements always work very well afterwards! I have never tried this myself as I have always done things the 'right way' but I think I may test this out myself on a worn Hermle movement. I have plenty of them lol :)
     
  37. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Chamfering the bushing opening on the inside of the plate doesn't mean "digging a hole" in the bushing. All that's needed is to just slightly knock off the sharp edge at the end of the hole. Just a bit of insurance incase there is a radius at the root of the pivot.

    RC
     
  38. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

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    I just use a drill bit and manually chamfer the bushing, its easy enough to do that way.
     
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  39. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    It is all practice. The important thing is never take too much off.
     
  40. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    As RC mentioned, I just barely touch the sharp shoulder with the Bergeon champfering tool. I do this by hand and probably remove about 1 or 2 thou of metal.

    Get out the ole microscope and you will see a radius at the root of all pivots. This radius can interfere with the free rotation of a fresh bushing job. Most of the time the radius will quickly wear its own tiny chamber in the bushing. But, if the bushing is left a little too tight and the pivot has a healthy radus, your clock can have strainge stoppage problems. This seems to be much more prevalent on the time train and can take a very large amount of time to figire out !!!

    So, I just take a few seconds and put a slight chamfer on all NEW bushings. I also do the spin test in the two positions in plain with the floor. Every once and a while a pivot will spin free in the normal position and stop dead when you go to one of the just mentioned positions. This behaviour is nearly always due to a taper, or a fat radius.

    WIllie X
     
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  41. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    1. Get a copy of David Goodman's This Old Clock (Amazon kindle). Contains tons of information, including how to build a makeshift lathe from a hand drill.

    2. Go ahead and spend the money for a pivot file/burnisher. They are a bit pricey, but they last a long time and there is no substitute.
     
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  42. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

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    I am dutifully making notes of all of the valued information here! Thank you, Bangster, I will order them! One question, does any supplier have any pivot wire that is American made? I see Timesavers has a direct link to India made products and I would like to avoid it if possible.
     
  43. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

    Apr 4, 2006
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    I've ordered pivot wire assortments from Timesavers and Merritt's with mostly good results. Music wire available at most hobby shops is also OK. www.mcmaster.com (and other machine tool suppliers) sell drill rod which usually has a better finish than pivot wire and is available in a wide range of sizes but costs a little more. You can also cut off part of the shank of a new drill bit to make a pivot, but keep in mind that a drill will drill oversized so not a good idea to use the drill that made the hole. You can also get gauge pins in practically any size but that is likely the most expensive option.

    RC
     
  44. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

    Dec 2, 2016
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    Heartily agree with both 1 and 2. Particularly 2.
     
  45. Phil G4SPZ

    Phil G4SPZ Phil
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    Oct 18, 2018
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    #45 Phil G4SPZ, Nov 22, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
    I have managed to repair a waisted pivot by hand, starting with rotating the arbor by hand, held in a pin vice, against a fine diamond file, and then against a home-made burnisher. The pivot wasn’t as far gone as yours, and the process took a long time and a lot of care, checking frequently with a x10 lens, but it worked surprisingly well and the clock is still going perfectly.

    Phil
     
  46. NEW65

    NEW65 Registered User

    Nov 17, 2010
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    Well, I have always taken a fair bit off and never had any issues. I will however be a little more sparing in future :D I am glad this topic has been raised now!
     
  47. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Oct 19, 2005
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    That explains it then. I always broach from the inside, and often from both sides of the new bushing. So I've been chamfering and didn't know it :D
     
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  48. Lynsey

    Lynsey Registered User

    Nov 7, 2019
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    Bangster, I did go and get the sample of the kindle for Mac of that book. Good thing I did because it is not viewable straight on. You have to read it sideways and I cannot do that (55 years of being abused by horse/animal related injuries). I will try and find it in the library!
     
  49. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    There is one on ebay right now. search for "Goodman This old book" under "books".

    Uhralt
     
  50. Phil G4SPZ

    Phil G4SPZ Phil
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    Oct 18, 2018
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    I just purchased the Kindle edition of this book as I don’t mind reading sideways, but the page numbers are also completely out of sequence! Goodness knows how they managed to make such a mess of digitising the book, which does appear to contain some excellent advice.
     
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