Time recorder mainspring cleaning question

[ahemsley]

This is a Cincinnati Time Recorder movement. The mainspring arbor is 1/4" wide, bigger than my largest (Size 16) let down key hole. We managed to let the springs down for removal by rigging up a tool (shown in one of the photos) but this will not work in the Ollie Baker winder. So, I have a few questions:
1. Are such large let down keys available that would work in the Ollie Baker winder?
2. Is the winder even designed to handle a spring of such strength?
3. Are there alternative work-arounds? At present I don't have the winding key.

 

[Dick Feldman]

What it the measurement flat to flat on the winding arbor?
That will be the key (pun intended) to what you are looking for.
Dick

 

[Willie X]

A 6" to 10" lathe, with a four jaw chuck, can make this job a lot easier. There can still be difficulties, depending on how long the winding shaft is and how long the innermost step of the chuck sticks out.

Note, disableing the time stamp, and using two common .018" mainspring can make your clock a lot more manageable.

Willie X

 

[Mike Phelan]

I take it that you don't have the original key? Time recorders always have hefty mainsprings because of all the other bits thay have to drive as well as the clock movement. What I'd do is to oil the pivots and remove the pallets so the clock runs down - then you can easily let down any remaining force using the clicks and your socket shown above.
Remove any stopwork if it exists. .

 

[ahemsley]

I take it that you don't have the original key? Time recorders always have hefty mainsprings because of all the other bits thay have to drive as well as the clock movement. What I'd do is to oil the pivots and remove the pallets so the clock runs down - then you can easily let down any remaining force using the clicks and your socket shown above.
Remove any stopwork if it exists. .

I wondered about taking everything out (to prevent further tooth wear/damage) from between the plates except one spring and then removing its C clamp - just wasn't sure if the tool would be safe enough to hold the spring. We screwed the iron clock holder into a bench just to get the C clamp on, so possibly by doing that again the spring could be safely unwound. I don't see any restraining posts around the springs, but the center wheel between the two springs (see photo) might impede a full spring unwinding . I still have the clamp on both sides; the clock has run all night on the few winding turns I gave it yesterday evening. I still thought cleaning the springs should be done.

Just read the thread about using hose clamps and decided that is NOT the way to go!

 

[ahemsley]

A 6" to 10" lathe, with a four jaw chuck, can make this job a lot easier. There can still be difficulties, depending on how long the winding shaft is and how long the innermost step of the chuck sticks out.

Note, disableing the time stamp, and using two common .018" mainspring can make your clock a lot more manageable.

Willie X

Good to know about the spring substitution, although the hope is to restore the machine fully. I don't have a 4 jaw chuck, but maybe I should have one!

 

[ahemsley]

What it the measurement flat to flat on the winding arbor?
That will be the key (pun intended) to what you are looking for.
Dick

The arbor is 1/4" (6.35mm) wide from flat to flat. The 1/4" square socket fits pretty well.

 

[shutterbug]

Maybe you could get a 1/4" socket on a handle, cut the handle off, grind the shank down to a size your Ollie will accept and file a square at the end.

 

[ahemsley]

Maybe you could get a 1/4" socket on a handle, cut the handle off, grind the shank down to a size your Ollie will accept and file a square at the end.

There remains the question of whether the Ollie Baker winder is strong enough to handle the rewind. I'd hate to break it over a one-off time piece when I use it so much more on regular sized springs.

 

[Raymond101]

Hi . Get a set of air-conditioning valve socks they are 1/4 drive and the valve squares are from 1/8 to 1/2inch .
Used for closing heavy valve shafts .
Just a thought.
You won't break these socks. Not sure how you would hold the clock mechanism.

 

[ahemsley]

Hi . Get a set of air-conditioning valve socks they are 1/4 drive and the valve squares are from 1/8 to 1/2inch .
Used for closing heavy valve shafts .
Just a thought.
You won't break these socks. Not sure how you would hold the clock mechanism.

Do you mean this type of socket? Maybe a leverage arm could go through the hole, although that's not why it's there:

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/76985134?gclsrc=aw.ds&product_id=76985134&rd=k&pcrid=-99&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgvm24pOB_gIVvWpvBB26qw6qEAQYAyABEgJ_MfD_BwE&mkwid=%7Cdc&cid=ppc-google-

 

[Raymond101]

Do you mean this type of socket? Maybe a leverage arm could go through the hole, although that's not why it's there:

https://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/76985134?gclsrc=aw.ds&product_id=76985134&rd=k&pcrid=-99&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgvm24pOB_gIVvWpvBB26qw6qEAQYAyABEgJ_MfD_BwE&mkwid=%7Cdc&cid=ppc-google-

No .. that's hex . The ones I've got are really old but they are square male 1/4" to square female . I got my ones 50yrs ago . It's just a straight socket & male to female square. You should be able to find just a single size .
I will try and find one of my one and photo it . Been retired for a while so they are in storage.
Edit . Not sure these will help if the spring is really powerful. As compressors are bolted Down .
The shaft slipping thought your had will likely get hot or the clock will try to jump .
Probably be safer to remove the escapement etc and give it a control let down. As previously mentioned.

 

[ahemsley]

No .. that's hex . The ones I've got are really old but they are square male 1/4" to square female . I got my ones 50yrs ago . It's just a straight socket & male to female square. You should be able to find just a single size .
I will try and find one of my one and photo it . Been retired for a while so they are in storage.
Edit . Not sure these will help if the spring is really powerful. As compressors are bolted Down .
The shaft slipping thought your had will likely get hot or the clock will try to jump .
Probably be safer to remove the escapement etc and give it a control let down. As previously mentioned.

The clock ran three days on the few winds I gave it with the C clamp still in place, so we're putting off cleaning the mainsprings for now, just tooks the C clamps off and got everything back together. Here's the final, restored, running time recorder. New Cincinnati ribbon should arrive in next week's mail. The biggest challenge right now is fabricating a new key for the glass door, we got a clock winding key on EBay along with a 1924 movement that looks very similar.

 

[shutterbug]

Nice looking clock!

 

[Kevin W.]

Planing to replace the heavy strong main springs that are currently in my IBM punch clock. I wont have the stamping mechanism connected to the movement.

 

[ahemsley]

Planing to replace the heavy strong main springs that are currently in my IBM punch clock. I wont have the stamping mechanism connected to the movement.

Interesting you should say that...Clock is running fine by itself and the stamping mechanism has been lubed and all parts seem to move freely. New ribbon has been installed and it's possible to move the hands and machine parts to get the correct day and am/pm choices. But when the clock and stamping mechanism are connected, the clock runs for about 7 minuters then stops. Any ideas on this issue?

 

[shutterbug]

Well, clearly something in the lower unit is dragging down the movement. Look for issues on the date and time changes. Probably the latter.

 

[ahemsley]

Well, clearly something in the lower unit is dragging down the movement. Look for issues on the date and time changes. Probably the latter.

It's a day and time recorder, no date. Seven days, divided into am/pm, so 14 setting options and then the time. Thought that the stopping after seven minutes might be significant, but I'll check other possibilities as mentioned in the Stephen Richardson Nov. 25, 2006 post. different brand of time recorder, but a similar problem. In that post, power from the clock was suggested to be the problem, though.

 

[JTD]

t's a day and time recorder,

I think that's what Shutterbug meant by 'date', i.e. the day of the week, not the date of the month.

JTD

 

[ahemsley]

I think that's what Shutterbug meant by 'date', i.e. the day of the week, not the date of the month.

JTD

We got the installation page along with this old time recorder. This model was available as day/ time or date/ time. I just added my comment in case it made any difference to someone knowledgeable in trouble-shooting. Also, that Simplex time recorder thread was Nov. 2009, not 2006, my typo, in case anyone else is looking for info.

 

[Kevin W.]

This clock i have was made in the 1940,s, it was taken out of service in the 1970,s, its been bushed. So with the wear that isee it has i can only assume these strong main springs wear the movement at a fast rate. Which is why i will install less stronger main springs. And they will be easier to work with, when the next repair person works on it.