• Important Executive Director Announcement from the NAWCC

    The NAWCC Board of Directors is pleased to announce that Mr. Rory McEvoy has been named Executive Director of the NAWCC. Rory is an internationally renowned horological scholar and comes to the NAWCC with strong credentials that solidly align with our education, fundraising, and membership growth objectives. He has a postgraduate degree in the conservation and restoration of antique clocks from West Dean College, and throughout his career, he has had the opportunity to handle some of the world’s most important horological artifacts, including longitude timekeepers by Harrison, Kendall, and Mudge.

    Rory formerly worked as Curator of Horology at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, where his role included day-to-day management of research and digitization projects, writing, public speaking, conservation, convening conferences, exhibition work, and development of acquisition/disposal and collection care policies. In addition, he has worked as a horological specialist at Bonhams in London, where he cataloged and handled many rare timepieces and built important relationships with collectors, buyers, and sellers. Most recently, Rory has used his talents to share his love of horology at the university level by teaching horological theory, history, and the practical repair and making of clocks and watches at Birmingham City University.

    Rory is a British citizen and currently resides in the UK. Pre-COVID-19, Rory and his wife, Kaai, visited HQ in Columbia, Pennsylvania, where they met with staff, spent time in the Museum and Library & Research Center, and toured the area. Rory and Kaai will be relocating to the area as soon as the immigration challenges and travel restrictions due to COVID-19 permit.

    Some of you may already be familiar with Rory as he is also a well-known author and lecturer. His recent publications include the book Harrison Decoded: Towards a Perfect Pendulum Clock, which he edited with Jonathan Betts, and the article “George Graham and the Orrery” in the journal Nuncius.

    Until Rory’s relocation to the United States is complete, he will be working closely with an on-boarding team assembled by the NAWCC Board of Directors to introduce him to the opportunities and challenges before us and to ensure a smooth transition. Rory will be participating in strategic and financial planning immediately, which will allow him to hit the ground running when he arrives in Columbia

    You can read more about Rory McEvoy and this exciting announcement in the upcoming March/April issue of the Watch & Clock Bulletin.

    Please join the entire Board and staff in welcoming Rory to the NAWCC community.

Tiffany Reed and Company Paris inking chronograph information needed

Dr Z

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Jan 6, 2021
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I am interested in any information this chronograph, an inking F. L. Fatten chronograph of unknown age please see the enclosed photo there is a mark on the back plate 1470 and circle made up of the word brevette with indistinguishable other numbers and letters it is the only one inking chronograph that I have had the good fortune to possess any information would be welcome I collect period Breguet pocket watches and other closely related materials including watches and eleve de BreguetI and quality faux pieces I also enjoy early American dedicated engraved watches from the timeframe, circa 1880. Are there any other people out there who collect similar items? Thank you for your attention and good luck in your quest.

89AC36DF-1142-4165-BC63-1CFF30C0950A.jpeg 0B5CA912-5225-439B-A20D-0317126B8FCE.jpeg B1E7A0EE-E473-4489-A2CC-5A25A76396D3.jpeg DD7FB01A-2FEF-4D7F-BC8D-DAC62FD166E0.jpeg 637CCAC4-15E4-4743-9E7C-888AF0F17858.jpeg A5F195C1-309E-4498-8049-96102495FF07.jpeg 014AA040-DFD0-4F72-9109-596BBE81E725.jpeg
 

agemo

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Hi,
I think it is one of the first laboratory chronometers built by Fouché in Paris 93 rue de Turenne at the end of the 19th century, the M means "marche" on and A "arrêt" off.
Here is a link with a Fouché chronometer from the beginning of the 20th century : chrono non identifié
You will notice that the start stop system has been modified.

Amicalement GG ;)
 

D.th.munroe

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I have a Paul Garnier, non inking more like the one in agemo's link, its in pieces, needs a new escape wheel.
(I have 100s of watches and clocks in pieces that came from a clockmaker who passed away.)
I thought these ones were a bit earlier though.
Tom McIntyre has a picture of a jitterbug type one (tiny balance, not sure of parts of a second it was) in his albums somewhere.
Dan

16101363915556993164957851734170.jpg
 

Philip Poniz

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Feb 22, 2012
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Welcome to the forum, Dr. Z!

For those who don’t know him, Dr. Z. is an accomplished Breguet collector. His other passion is helping nations in distress; wherever there is a natural disaster, you will find Dr. Z. helping the injured using his surgical skills.

I hope that members will contribute to Dr. Z’s inking chronograph. One of my potential candidates for Fact or Fiction was the Inking Chronograph. Fact or Fiction is a new column in our Watch & Clock Bulletin, starting this month, with at least 12 articles, either every issue or every other one. The subject must have horological controversy. Inking Chronograph controversy is the fact that Rieussec, who was the first to patent such, claimed that Breguet stole his idea, that Fatton’s inkling chronograph was Rieussec’s invention, later passed to Fatton through Breguet.

Philip Poniz
 

D.th.munroe

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That is great, Thank you Dr. Z and welcome.
I would love to do either of those if I could.

If it helps there was only a 25 year period, 1850-1875, when "Tiffany & Reed Co" was used.
Dan.
 

Philip Poniz

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TIFFANY, REED & CO

There is not much information available on Tiffany, Reed & Co. Even the official Tiffany’s books do not say much about them. On the basic level, in the early 1850’s, about ten years after the establishment of Tiffany, Young & Ellis, both partners, J. L. Ellis and John B. Young (also C.L. Tiffany’s brother in law) retired. The company was then renamed Tiffany & Co.

In Chicago there was a well-established jewelry firm, Lincoln, Reed & Co. Its partner, Gideon F.T Reed joined Tiffany in 1850 to open a branch in Paris which was named Tiffany, Reed & Co with Gideon running it.

In their ads from the 1850’s to 1875, Tiffany Co., advertised the Paris sister, with address Rue Richelieu 79. In the second half of the 1860’s Tiffany, Reed & Co. moved to a larger facility at 57 Rue du Cardinal Fesch, afterward named Rue de Chateaudun.

Digging a bit deeper, we come to the more interesting stuff. In 1864 at the New York Fair, Tiffany & Co gave away two swords to “the military and naval officers who shall receive the greatest number of votes”. We are at the end of the Civil War. The final competition was between friends of General Ulysses S. Grant and those of George B. McClellan.

Talking about swords, the US War Office, under February 20, 1872 has a record of 6,035 cavalry swords that Tiffany, Reed & Co. of New York, ordered from Great Britain between 1861 and 1864. That is a respectable number of swords! It is doubtful that Tiffany gave all of them away. Clearly, Tiffany, Reed & Co played a role in the Civil War. Notice the New York address.

In 1868, Tiffany & Co. was incorporated with Charles L. Tiffany as president and treasurer, and Gideon F. T. Reed as the vice-president. Apparently Reed was the second in command within Tiffany’s entire empire. In 1875 Reed retired and the Paris branch changed the name to Tiffany & Co.

I had a Patek & Co, open face watch retailed in 1851 by Tiffany & Reed, New York (Not Tiffany, Reed & Co). It appears that when Tiffany, Reed & Co traded from New York it was under Tiffany & Reed.

Philip Poniz
 

D.th.munroe

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Dr Z

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It is with great pleasure, humility and desire to learn that I joined this forum. I wish to thank Mr. Poniz and all the members for their comments and education that they have so generously given me and posterity I have read all of the posts and I’m excited to be part of this group. I am looking forward greatly to the future, the knowledge that I will receive and the friends I hope to make Dr. Z
 

Dr. Jon

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I doubt this watch was an inking timer. I have a similar one as shown.

Since it has a stop start feature there is no reason for it to drop ink. The pendant operates a return to zero heart cam which came into wide use in the 1860's face.png Side.png Back.png mvt.png
The marks under the balance reads Brevette P. F under the balance and possibly "CODG"

The slide starts and stops it and the device at 0/60 returns to zero.
 

D.th.munroe

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Dr.Jon, I'm guessing the stamp is supposed to be "Breveté S.G.D.G" "Breveté Sans Garantie Du Gouvernement“ Patent without government guarantee.
Dan
 

D.th.munroe

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Mr. Poniz.
On the Fatton controversy, I have a theory on that now after reading the French and English patents.;)
Dan.
 

Philip Poniz

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Feb 22, 2012
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INKING CHRONOGRAPHS

Most attempts of measuring time intervals are centuries old. The earliest ones came from physicians who needed to measure pulses and astronomers, already in the 16th and the 17th centuries. Then more circumstances presented themselves including time interval tools being used for horse and dog racing.

One of the instruments used was the inking chronograph. Nicolas-Mathieu Rieussec patented one in 1821 in Paris. Breguet was called to assess its merits. Two years later Fatton patented one in London. Rieussec, publicly, accused Breguet of stealing his idea and passing it on to Fatton. It may become one of my next subjects for our series, Horological Fact or Fiction.

The principle behind the inking chronograph is a small bowl of ink at the end of the sweep seconds hand, containing a pin hole. The pin hole is so small that the capillary forces do not let ink go through it by itself. A small needle-like tip of another hand placed over the sweep seconds one, if activated, forces a very small amount of the ink through the hole onto the dial leaving a small dot, recording an event. Initially, it was designed for horse racing.

PF 1471 Tip.jpg

Inking chronographs were relatively inexpensive (except Rieussec’s & Breguet’s), and easy to operate. The ink filling was a nuisance, but it was a slow drying ink and its cleaning process was okay. Actually, it was more of a dark oil than ink. I have a few inking chronographs and when I played with some of them, the cleaning which I did by drawing the ink to a piece of paper towel inserted under the bowl, was relatively easy.

Inking chronographs came in a box with ink phials and application tools. I have seen a number of boxes and vials but very few application tools.

They were sold by many watchmaking companies; besides Rieussec and Fatton, there were Breguet, Ami Sandoz, Henri Robert, Gustave Sandoz, Paul Garnier, Patek Philippe, Barraud & Lunds, J.W. Benson, Rodanet, Excelsior Park (20th c.), Tiffany, Reed & Co, and a few more.

In 1864 or slightly before, Michel Paul Foucher, a watchmaker originally from Bourges, France, designed a simple inking timer.[1] Foucher submitted it for a patent on May 12, 1864. It was inexpensive to produce, with two pushpieces flanking the pendant, one to drop the ink, the other for zeroing. There was also a bolt to stop the timer.
PF 1864 Patent.jpg

Four years later, in September 1868, he updated the patent with the design in the figure below.
PF 1868 Patent.jpg

This is exactly what Dr. Z’s photos show, isn’t it? The patent’s date and the end of Tiffany, Reed & Co place the watch between 1868 and 1875. Foucher’s original idea was patented only two years after Adolphe Nicole’s 1862 chronograph improvement yet it is more similar to Nicole’s earlier, 1844 design.[2],

When Foucher patented his timer, his Paris address was at 6 rue de la Butte-Chaumont, in 1894 he was at rue 40 de la Folie-Méricourt. Afterwards, judging by the signatures on his watches, he was at 93 rue de Turenne, where the company still existed up to the 1950’s dealing, mostly, with inexpensive chronographs. Shortly after, in the late 1950’s we find his successors at 11 & 13 Rue de Béarn under Ets Foucher. He wrote the quite popular Manuel d'Horlogerie. Tardy states that Foucher exhibited at the 1851 London and 1867 Paris Expositions.

I was surprised when I saw Foucher’s inking chronograph, with a lever escapement, that was made no earlier than 1930 and possibly as late as 1950. To compare, the latest sale of Patek Philippe inking chronograph, that I have record of, is 1916.

By uncanny coincidence, I have an identical Tiffany, Reed & Co inking chronograph with the consecutive serial number! Dr. Z’s is 1470, mine is 1471.
PF 1471.JPG PF 1471 Dial.JPG

In the collecting world, I noticed, and many collector friends can concur, one may not see a certain type of object for decades and then, suddenly, a few of them pop up, one after another!

Foucher’s timer, or compteur à pointage, as the French call it, is historically unusual on a couple of points; first the zeroing is done directly, the user’s finger slides the bolt at 6 o’clock which in turn pushes the zeroing lever. In Foucher’s 1864 original patent (Fig. 2) it was not a bolt but a pushbutton, the same as in Nicole’s original 1844 chronograph with direct zeroing.
PF 1471 Zeroing.JPG

The start/stop is also from Nicole’s 1840 type, done by sliding a bolt. In Nicole’s design the start/stop mechanism was considerably more complicated but Nicole attached his timer to a watch while Foucher dealt with just a timer.

The watch was made using machinery but had to be finished by hand. It was done in batches. Almost every part of each batch, including the wheels, was numbered for (or by) the finisseur to know which one goes to what frame. Mine was No. 11 in this particular batch..
PF 1471 Wheel mark.JPG

It is a quite intelligently designed instrument, with a goal of reducing production costs without compromising reliability. The mechanism of dropping the ink, which has to be instantaneous, and has to be ready to drop another one in a split of a second, is quite clever. Saunier was impressed by it and reflected on it in his Traité.[3]
PF Instantenious triggering system.jpg

Foucher, in his patent, mentioned that the system can be used also in electric chronographs –instruments attached to a precision timekeeper for scientific observations. Those are rarely seen today in horological circles.

Breveté SGDG, as Dan rightly noticed, means Sans garantie du gouvernement – without government’s guarantee.
PF 1471 Mark.JPG

The French had a different patent system than most of their neighbors. The applicant was not required to specify what was new about his claim, could insist to obtain the patent even if advised that the patent might be legally invalid. He was warned: the government, in granting a patent without prior examination, does not in any manner guarantee either the priority, merit or success of an invention. The inventor decided for what period of “protection” to apply for: five, ten or fifteen years. It was just a matter of money he was willing to spend; 500Fr ($100) for a five year patent, 1000Fr for a 10 year one, and 1500 for a 15 year patent.

The “P.F” means, of course, Paul Foucher. We do not know if the numbering of his inking chronographs started from number 1. I doubt it, though.

For measuring simple time intervals, one does not need an inking chronograph. In such cases, for timing a single event, Foucher simplified his timers, like the one Dr. Jon’s posted. A number of those were bought by the French Navy who numbered them on the back of their cases. Since virtually all the numbers are in form 19xx, some assume that the numbers are, in fact, dates of purchase.

PHILIP PONIZ
______________________
[1] A chronograph, in the modern meaning of the word, is a regular watch with an additional mechanism that is able to measure time intervals. A timer measures the time intervals but does not show time.
[2] See my upcoming article on the subject in the May 2021 Fact or Fiction.
[3] Traité d’Horlogerie moderne, 1887: Il diffère de la généralité de ceux en usage, particulièrement par un double effet de ressort agissant d'abord rigidement et de champ pour opérer un soulèvement, et revenant ensuite à sa position, en vertu de sa force élastique latérale. Ce double effet, simple et sûr, appartient en propre à l’auteur.
 

Philip Poniz

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NAWCC Member
Feb 22, 2012
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FOUCHER'S INKING CHRONOGRAPH, PART II

Dr. Z., after our responses, sent his chronograph for restoration and comparative research purposes. The timer came in the original case, which is quite rare.
1 Dr Z w outer case.JPG

Each case originally had two ink vials. This one (custom made by us as the original was missing) is already filled with ink (which is not really ink).
2 Our vile with our 'ink'.JPG

During and after the restoration, I found a few surprises. I could time five events per second provided there are no two events closer than 1/5th of a second. In other words, I can time with the accuracy to 1/5th of a second.
3 Dr Z's with 5 dots.jpg

I can press the inking pushbutton faster but then the dots merge.
4 Dr z's with merged dots.jpg

Probably, the biggest surprise is the dial scale - every second is divided into four parts. Why, if one can measure five events in a second? Besides, the movement has a fast beat train (64, 80/8, 80/8, 15/8), beating five times per second (18,000 beat). Assuming that there are ten horses in a race and each horse comes at least 1/5th of a second behind the next, I can measure them easily. For this, one would expect that a second be divided into five parts but it is not. Foucher’s earlier chronographs probably had slow, 4-beats/second (14,400 beat) train, which he changed to fast beat but used 4-beat-dials from his old stock.

What is important is that the delay errors (see here) are less than 1/5th of a second. Quite remarkable for an inking chronograph. That’s the default accuracy of most of the modern wrist chronographs.


The Serial Numbers

Dr. Z.s’ and my watches have consecutive serial numbers. The cases and the movements presumably came from the same batches. The cases also have consecutive serial numbers. The movements’ numbers are close. See the table. Both watches were retailed by Tiffany, Reed & Co., Paris.


DR Z.
PP
Foucher's
1470
1471
Case No (presumably the same batch)
2
3
Movement No (presumably the same batch)
6
11

Foucher’s numbers, Dr. Z’s and mine respectively.
5 Dr Z's SN.jpg 6 MIne SN.JPG

The case numbers of Dr. Z’s and mine.
7 Dr Z's case No.jpg 8 My SN.jpg

And his and my movement numbers.
9 Dr Z's mvmt No.JPG 10 My mvmt No.JPG


At first glance the parts look identical. Yet they are not interchangeable.
11 My & Dr Z's dial.JPG 12 My & Dr Z's backs.JPG 13 My ^ Dr Z's mvmts.JPG IMG_5919.JPG


The wheels’ diameters are the same, but the wheels from mine do not fit Dr. Z's movement and vice versa. The chronograph's mechanisms are also not interchangeable, his parts do not fit my watch, and mine do not fit his. The cases look very alike but still have their differences. Even the back covers are not interchangeable - mine is too loose on his watch and his does not fit mine. For comparison, many front and back covers of Breguet watches are interchangeable. In this case, both the movement and the case are finished by hand with slight differences.

It is rare to be able to confirm, what Adrien Philippe (from Patek Philippe) wrote in one of his Paris Expositions reports, that French machine-produced watches, in the 1870s, were not based on interchangeable parts.

Philip Poniz
 

Dr Z

Registered User
Jan 6, 2021
6
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FOUCHER'S INKING CHRONOGRAPH, PART II

Dr. Z., after our responses, sent his chronograph for restoration and comparative research purposes. The timer came in the original case, which is quite rare.
View attachment 638250

Each case originally had two ink vials. This one (custom made by us as the original was missing) is already filled with ink (which is not really ink).
View attachment 638251

During and after the restoration, I found a few surprises. I could time five events per second provided there are no two events closer than 1/5th of a second. In other words, I can time with the accuracy to 1/5th of a second.
View attachment 638252

I can press the inking pushbutton faster but then the dots merge.
View attachment 638253

Probably, the biggest surprise is the dial scale - every second is divided into four parts. Why, if one can measure five events in a second? Besides, the movement has a fast beat train (64, 80/8, 80/8, 15/8), beating five times per second (18,000 beat). Assuming that there are ten horses in a race and each horse comes at least 1/5th of a second behind the next, I can measure them easily. For this, one would expect that a second be divided into five parts but it is not. Foucher’s earlier chronographs probably had slow, 4-beats/second (14,400 beat) train, which he changed to fast beat but used 4-beat-dials from his old stock.

What is important is that the delay errors (see here) are less than 1/5th of a second. Quite remarkable for an inking chronograph. That’s the default accuracy of most of the modern wrist chronographs.


The Serial Numbers

Dr. Z.s’ and my watches have consecutive serial numbers. The cases and the movements presumably came from the same batches. The cases also have consecutive serial numbers. The movements’ numbers are close. See the table. Both watches were retailed by Tiffany, Reed & Co., Paris.


DR Z.
PP
Foucher's
1470
1471
Case No (presumably the same batch)
2
3
Movement No (presumably the same batch)
6
11
Foucher’s numbers, Dr. Z’s and mine respectively.

View attachment 638254 View attachment 638255

The case numbers of Dr. Z’s and mine.
View attachment 638256 View attachment 638257

And his and my movement numbers.
View attachment 638258 View attachment 638259


At first glance the parts look identical. Yet they are not interchangeable.
View attachment 638260 View attachment 638261 View attachment 638262 View attachment 638263


The wheels’ diameters are the same, but the wheels from mine do not fit Dr. Z's movement and vice versa. The chronograph's mechanisms are also not interchangeable, his parts do not fit my watch, and mine do not fit his. The cases look very alike but still have their differences. Even the back covers are not interchangeable - mine is too loose on his watch and his does not fit mine. For comparison, many front and back covers of Breguet watches are interchangeable. In this case, both the movement and the case are finished by hand with slight differences.

It is rare to be able to confirm, what Adrien Philippe (from Patek Philippe) wrote in one of his Paris Expositions reports, that French machine-produced watches, in the 1870s, were not based on interchangeable parts.

Philip Poniz
FOUCHER'S INKING CHRONOGRAPH, PART II

Dr. Z., after our responses, sent his chronograph for restoration and comparative research purposes. The timer came in the original case, which is quite rare.
View attachment 638250

Each case originally had two ink vials. This one (custom made by us as the original was missing) is already filled with ink (which is not really ink).
View attachment 638251

During and after the restoration, I found a few surprises. I could time five events per second provided there are no two events closer than 1/5th of a second. In other words, I can time with the accuracy to 1/5th of a second.
View attachment 638252

I can press the inking pushbutton faster but then the dots merge.
View attachment 638253

Probably, the biggest surprise is the dial scale - every second is divided into four parts. Why, if one can measure five events in a second? Besides, the movement has a fast beat train (64, 80/8, 80/8, 15/8), beating five times per second (18,000 beat). Assuming that there are ten horses in a race and each horse comes at least 1/5th of a second behind the next, I can measure them easily. For this, one would expect that a second be divided into five parts but it is not. Foucher’s earlier chronographs probably had slow, 4-beats/second (14,400 beat) train, which he changed to fast beat but used 4-beat-dials from his old stock.

What is important is that the delay errors (see here) are less than 1/5th of a second. Quite remarkable for an inking chronograph. That’s the default accuracy of most of the modern wrist chronographs.


The Serial Numbers

Dr. Z.s’ and my watches have consecutive serial numbers. The cases and the movements presumably came from the same batches. The cases also have consecutive serial numbers. The movements’ numbers are close. See the table. Both watches were retailed by Tiffany, Reed & Co., Paris.


DR Z.
PP
Foucher's
1470
1471
Case No (presumably the same batch)
2
3
Movement No (presumably the same batch)
6
11

Foucher’s numbers, Dr. Z’s and mine respectively.
View attachment 638254 View attachment 638255

The case numbers of Dr. Z’s and mine.
View attachment 638256 View attachment 638257

And his and my movement numbers.
View attachment 638258 View attachment 638259


At first glance the parts look identical. Yet they are not interchangeable.
View attachment 638260 View attachment 638261 View attachment 638262 View attachment 638263


The wheels’ diameters are the same, but the wheels from mine do not fit Dr. Z's movement and vice versa. The chronograph's mechanisms are also not interchangeable, his parts do not fit my watch, and mine do not fit his. The cases look very alike but still have their differences. Even the back covers are not interchangeable - mine is too loose on his watch and his does not fit mine. For comparison, many front and back covers of Breguet watches are interchangeable. In this case, both the movement and the case are finished by hand with slight differences.

It is rare to be able to confirm, what Adrien Philippe (from Patek Philippe) wrote in one of his Paris Expositions reports, that French machine-produced watches, in the 1870s, were not based on interchangeable parts.

Philip Poniz
 

Dr Z

Registered User
Jan 6, 2021
6
2
3
74
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Thank you Dr. Poniz for once again elucidating, analyzing and solving problems. I was particularly interested in the fact that French watches were not produced with interchangeable parts, cases to the 1870s. Thank you once again for your insights, we as a group are truly blessed to have somebody so knowledgeable a true Sui Generis!
 

Dr Z

Registered User
Jan 6, 2021
6
2
3
74
Country
Thank you Dr. Poniz for once again elucidating, analyzing and solving problems. I was particularly interested in the fact that French watches were not produced with interchangeable parts, cases to the 1870s. Thank you once again for your insights, we as a group are truly blessed to have somebody so knowledgeable a true Sui Generis!
p.s. Oh Please excuse, if not ink, what, how to remove:???:
 
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