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Tiffany Tiffany Neverwind suspension

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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Hello, just took delivery on a 1100. I have only worked on the slightly bigger version once and it was only to get the minute hands to start advancing as the clock ran. The one I have now hums and the fork kind of jumps when the contact is made so I am hoping the coils are fine. I need to replace the suspension spring and would like some help. I have seen the post with the diagram for the regulating part at the bottom, which I understand is a bit tricky. I am hoping some of you more experienced would give me some tips and warnings before I begin making mistakes. The Horolovar .0040 is the correct spring, right? Thanks
 

John Hubby

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The Horolovar 0.0040 is the correct spring for this model. Assembly of the bottom (regulating) assembly is a little tricky, main thing is to be sure the suspension spring doesn't contact the cap at the top when the spring is in place and the pendulum attached.

In addition to the armature coils you will need to check the shunt wiring and coil that is between the dial and the dial back plate to be sure there aren't any broken connections. That is designed to minimize back emf when the contact is broken between the contact pin on the suspension spring and the contact plate at the back of the coils. Also check circuit continuity from the shunt through the coils and to the suspension spring to be sure there aren't any breaks or high resistance.

Search through the threads in this forum for other info about servicing and repair to the Style 1100 clock, you should find answers to most if not all of your questions.
 

whatgoesaround

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Thanks, Mr. Hubby. I am working on minimal electrical clock knowledge. I will try to follow the check list. It arrived with the plate that is pulled up by the coils detached with the rod that it rides on completely pulled out of the plate. The armature could not move enough to make the gears turn for the hand to advance. I might have this part fixed and will be attempting the suspension spring when time allows.
 

whatgoesaround

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I am almost there. I read all the threads and hoped there were no internal electrical problems; I know my limitations. After reviewing your diagram of the regulating assembly I took it apart very carefully and noted how each piece was placed. It must be the earlier version without the spring and with a narrow wire to center the suspension spring. The bottom piece would not hold the spring after multiple tries, so I used pliers to press it tight. Anyhow, all was going well and then I broke the tiny wire attached to the top block. I soldered it back and now it is running with one major problem. When the contact is made the flat metal part at the bottom jumps instead of making one contact when pulled by the coils. At least I know I have the hands advancing properly, since as it jumps the hands move way too much along with it. What could be causing this and how do I fix it? Thanks to anyone that can help me out.
 

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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Update, It is running . . . better. This clock has obviously been worked on before. The post that holds the part that the coils pull up is easy to turn, as is the short post that blocks the fall of this part on the other side; these should not be able to move. Not only was this supporting post detached when I got it, it was bent. When I repositioned the post and bent it back to straight it stopped the multi-jumping, but problems still persist. It will function just perfectly on one cycle, but every 3-4 turns it will double click; sometimes twice in a row. It is getting about 400 degrees of rotation. So, I believe at this point it must be a mechanical problem. Any ideas out there?
 

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When you say double clicking, is the armature actually moving twice or is it that the drive pawl is advancing two teeth instead of one on the motion works drive gear?

If the armature is moving twice, there are two possible causes:
  1. Bouncing can be caused by the suspension spring contact "chattering" or bouncing when contact is made between the contact pin and the contact plate on the armature actuating lever. If this is the cause, it can be fixed by moving the position of the suspension spring contact slightly downward, to make sure it locks in the recess at the left end of the contact plate every time it makes contact.
  2. It can also be caused by the lack of felt pads on the armature that prevents metal to metal contact between the armature and the solenoid coils rods. This is discussed in the first point below.

If the armature is not moving twice but you are getting multiple tooth advancement on the motion works drive gear, there are three things that can cause that:
  1. The armature originally had a felt pads that prevent metal to metal contact with the solenoid coil rods. If these are missing, and no changes have been made to the drive pawl or retaining detent, that can/will cause the drive pawl to have more "lock" with the motion works drive gear. Depending on how much additional movement is permitted that can cause constant or intermittent pick up of two teeth instead of one. I use felt "dots" available from fabric or hobby shops that I glue to the armature using an adhesive trade named "Freesole", which is actually a cement used for shoe sole repair. It is resilient and quite tough when cured, holds the felt very securely.
  2. If the felt is present and in good condition, the next thing to check is the "lock" of the drive pawl with the motion works drive gear teeth. There is an eccentric adjustment on the pivot post that holds the drive pawl lever. This moves the position of the drive pawl up or down to set the "lock" of the pawl with the teeth of that gear. This adjustment needs to be set so that the drive pawl just clears the tip of the next tooth on the gear after the one that was just impulsed, which places it in position for the next impulse.
  3. There is also a detent that holds the motion works drive gear in place after each impulse that may not be adjusted properly. This detent may be worn so first check to see if there is any backward movement of the motion works drive gear after impulse. The detent has to be set so that it "does" clear the corresponding gear tooth on impulse, but then lock the gear in place so it has only a very small backwards motion.
Hope this will help. I have found that most of the time there is multiple tooth pickup, it is due to the absence or poor condition of the felt pads, since the "chattering" shows up very quickly and can usually be quickly stopped with a simple adjustment of the suspension spring contact position.
 
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whatgoesaround

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Thanks, Mr. Hubby. I mean that it will chatter and a double chatter results in it picking up two teeth. It only does this intermittently. When I received the clock, it would not even advance any teeth, but I finally got it adjusted to pick up the teeth by adjusting the eccentric nut as you described: I also had to adjust the one that held the rod that had come off. I also placed a felt pad as you described earlier, too, only using the adhesive on the back, though. I have adjusted the contact to go less than a mm up, since it was hard to tell if the enlarged portion of the contact rubbed the base of the protective surround. Sounds like I should have left it. However, on examining my clock, the recess you are talking about, is this the "hook" that catches the pin? If this is the case, it does catch it currently.
 
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whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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Well, no such luck. There was hardly any room to lower it and I got it so low I am not sure if it may have been rubbing. It ran just like before: a number of good turns and then a double click. Tried raising just to see the difference and that turned out as expected. Made about every adjustment with height of pin, and the eccentrics. It will run fine for awhile and then go into multiple chatter. I am defeated for now. I read where one member said that chatter was caused on his when the batteries were about dead. The batteries are fine. However, it came with a flimsy, homemade battery holder. I will have to try a new one of those. Tried all you said and I have run out of ideas.I have the 2000 model and really like it. I am sure I would really like this one, too; right now, I am not so sure. But I can't give up.
 

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You are correct, I was talking about the hook that should hold the contact pin after it is impulsed by the armature actuating lever. If it holds the pin until the pendulum stops rotating in the impulse direction, then allows the contact plate to drop as it rotates the opposite direction, that is the correct action.

I suspect you have an electrical continuity problem, where at some point in the circuit there is an intermittent high resistance. That could include a partial or complete break that stays closed most of the time, but the constant shock of the armature action on each rotation of the pendulum could cause a change in contact pattern that would either lower the voltage to the coils or cause a momentary interruption of the electrical current. Either one will cause the chattering. One way to test this is to bypass the shunt coil with connections directly from the battery terminals to the upper suspension block and to the solenoids. This will not harm the clock so long as you don't leave it that way but will definitely eliminate the chattering if there is a resistance or continuity problem external to the solenoid windings and connections..

If the chattering should continue after making the direct connections, then you have a problem within the solenoid circuits. I have yet to come across a bad solenoid coil, but have found bad wiring connections between the coils themselves or the wiring from them to the battery.

Let us know what you find using these tests.
 

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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I will try later today on the test. I found two possible other problems. Apparently I was not tightening the contact pin securely, because I noticed it had slipped to an upwards position and initiated the chattering. Fixed that and then found that the eccentric is super sensitive. With a half millimeter turn, I can get it to start chattering multiple times. I can get it to function as it should and then it will not advance every now and then. Last night I set it at what I hoped was a working position, since I had watched it for awhile, and today the hands are not advancing. Maybe there is a incredibly narrow sweet spot. I also noted that the eccentrics both turn easliy, maybe too loose. Thanks for hanging in there for me.
 

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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Well in a display of my ignorance, I connected to the suspension, but could find no place to actually connect to the coils. I see tiny wires and touched those, but nothing happens. I assume they are enamel coated. I also touched to the area where the two coils' wires connect. Of course, the coils themselves have enamel coated wire, so no connection. So, currently, I could not run the test you described. I am thinking it must be the eccentrics. Both are very easy to turn and even have some ever-so-slight looseness to their fit. I have adjusted them and can get the clock to run around 8-10 cycles on average and then get a double. I even adjusted to one with 42 cycles; I really thought I had it then, but . . . I think this has been messed with and things may not be aligning as they should; I can get it to run with no double clicks, but it is in a position the hands will not advance, which might be a test, itself, as you described above. I have spent hours today and feel I am so close to getting it, but just can't make that final break through.
 

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The eccentrics should "not" be loose, that may well be the problem since all the moving parts there get accelerated back and forth on each impulse. That looseness could be just enough to change the "lock" positions from time to time and cause the double pickup. I don't know if you took that assembly completely apart or not, but I usually do that to check for wear on the drive pawl and at every contact point.
 

whatgoesaround

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I used some super glue to put the post back in its hole to hold it still. I also put a dab beside each eccentric. It allowed me to still turn them, but there was enough friction to hold them tight. It seems to be running fine, except slow. It loses about five minutes per hour. I let it run for 12 hours and it lost one hour and 7 minutes, so it seems pretty consistent, so I do not think the loss is from any erratic behavior. I suppose I should order a .0045, unless you can think of another reason it would be slow. I have the adjuster at maximum fast.
 

whatgoesaround

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I used some super glue to put the post back in its hole to hold it still. I also put a dab beside each eccentric. It allowed me to still turn them, but there was enough friction to hold them tight. It seems to be running fine, except slow. It loses about five minutes per hour. I let it run for 12 hours and it lost one hour and 7 minutes, so it seems pretty consistent, so I do not think the loss is from any erratic behavior. I suppose I should order a .0045, unless you can think of another reason it would be slow. I have the adjuster at maximum fast.
I should have said one hour 2 min; it was already five minutes off when I took note.
 

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I would first check the bottom block assembly to be certain that the wire loop inside the hollow part is actually "holding" the suspension spring. The wire loop sides sometimes spread apart allowing the spring to turn between the sides. The loop should be closed together such that the spring is a sliding fit with some slight resistance. Also make sure the loop is at the top side of the adjusting nut and not upside down at the bottom side.

If all that is OK, then next thing I would do is shorten the spring. You say it's 1 hour 2 minutes slow in 12 hours, that's 8.3 percent or 5 minutes per hour. Shortening the spring by 8 percent is about 0.45 inch. If you have the pendulum position now fairly close to the base that would also tell me the spring is too long, the original spring length was set so the pendulum position was 1/2 to 3/4 inch above the base.

More work for you but this could resolve the timekeeping problem.
 

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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You have really hung in there with me and I thank you. I am back to square one. After about a day of seeming to work great, it started its double jumping again.Originally, I watched 50 good cycles and every time I would pass by it sitting on the table I would watch it for two or three advances and all was going well. At least I know it can work, but it alludes me. It is something idiosyncratic to this clock and is going to take me going through it moving piece by piece. I have adjusted and get it working only to come back and it is not lifting enough to catch the next tooth or it is double clicking. Like you said, I think the eccentrics are just loose enough to move out of adjustment. I checked the loop inside the suspension and the suspension spring is going through it and the height of the weights are 1/2 inch from the base. I am sure I will be taking it apart in the next few days to see if I can locate anything and if I find anything or eventually ever get it going to satisfaction (at least it runs:)) I will report back. Thanks again.
 

whatgoesaround

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Jan 22, 2008
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Closer to having a working clock. I had a movement bought for parts and decided after all I have tried I could perhaps exchange the eccentric and their posts. I pretty much saw this was an impossibility for my skills. But I found something out in the process. It was sold to me as non-working, but when testing the electronics I found that the inner coil (shunt?) allowed current to flow and the current flowed through the two magnetic coils, so I began to wonder why was it not working. I found that the battery holder wiring was such that all the batteries faced in the same direction, which surprised me. So, with the batteries correctly in place, when I used the fork still present to make the connection the coils pulled up the arm. Basically, it has all the parts working, I found that the minute hand pipe was rubbing the face and preventing the pawl from dropping. Easy fix. Then the contact part that catches the pin would not fall. The little inner coil was not formed as it should be and it took a little manipulation to get it loose enough to fall. So everything is ready for testing; but when I used the suspension from the first clock, the pin was a tiny bit too low and while getting the pin in position and trying to get it really tight I broke the suspension spring, my last .0040. So, I have a new pack on order and hopefully, I will have a properly functioning clock.

One the first clock, I noticed that there was a tiny wire loose on the shunt coil. However, when I tested the coil The circuit was complete. The backs of the eccentrics were completely worn free in the centers. I also wonder about the finish to the clock. It is like a very smooth gold color, but looks like a thick paint covering and not brass, itself. Was there a finish like this? The "non-running" movement's base and support are seriously pitted and wiring definitely dark with dirt/age. I only have the one pendulum and regulator and it matches the thicker gold paint of the first.