Tiffany Movement

John Pavlik

NAWCC Member
Dec 30, 2001
2,316
671
113
Green Bay, Wi
Country
Region
Hmmm. Is it that odd of a movement ? which is what I thought, I can not seem to find anything...It appears to be of pretty good quality.... as most often Tiffany marked movements are ... Any help appreciated ..
 

Jeff Hess

Moderator
Gold Business Member
Sep 3, 2000
7,155
421
83
Florida
www.ballwatchusa.com
Country
Region
looks very much like Ekegren's work. (Koehn). Also even though it is funky looking, it fits into the serial number range of Kevin Neatherys work.


"Serials I gathered are on time only movement watches. The range was 70194 to 88547 (added some more and up to 40).

Matching PL/Koehn/Ekegren grouped by movement design

88135 19j 7adj Caldwell
88185 19j 8adj Ekegren
83258 20j 7adj Tiffany
88243 19j 7adj Tiffany
87801 21j 8adj Koehn Caldwell

86748 21j 8adj Ekegren
85038 21j 7adj Tiffany
75107 No Markings on gilt movement Koehn Dial
83150 20j 7adj Tiffany
84951 21j 7adj Koehn
85042 21j 7adj Koehn
84276 21j adj Birks
86744 21j 8adj Caldwell Ekegren
86059 21j 7adj Tiffany
85027 21j 7adj Tiffany
84616 18j 7adj Koehn

88486 19j 8adj Ekegren
88466 19j 8adj Caldwell
##### 17j 7adj Van Dusen


Anything Caldwell is marked Koehn unless otherwise noted. The above is just an example of how they are grouping. I have identified a total of 12 movement designs. I have nothing to base the identification to a factory grade as they were not marked with any calibre numbers and I can find no catalogs as of yet to identify them. Tiffany had "the New Tiffany Watch" but that is not a designation by the factory as that same movement was used for companies like Caldwell and Birks. They operated as a regular factory would. Specialty pieces like repeaters and chronographs were most likely completed on a different line than the time only movements. The "standard" time only movements were of a certain group of calibres/designs and they produced them and sold to whom would buy. Some may have been set by to have the Ekegren name that tested out better than the rest or were set aside to be more finely adjusted.

I have not taken apart any of these movements and cannot attest to if there are any finishing differences that I cannot see. Based on what I have seen the only differences seem to be the adjustments. It is scarce to see an 8 adj Koehn but most Ekegren are adjusted to this. Any private label marked 8adj would be assumed to have gone through the same process as an Ekegren. But again it is scarce to see an Ekegren with a Private label along side it in the naming."

kevin did some good work, here, as taken from an earlier NAWCC thread. Not sure if germane.

Jeff Hess
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,346
1,689
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
It's Ed Koehn. When hthis was made Koehn was using H. R. Ekegren on special watches. This one is very fine but not quite Ekegren level.

Here is Koehn signed example.

mvt.png

Here is closed and enhance view of the center cock
center.png

This example has a private label on its dial

This movement is also illustrade in Shugart in the section of Ed Koehn watches which they date to 1900.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Keith R...

Jeff Hess

Moderator
Gold Business Member
Sep 3, 2000
7,155
421
83
Florida
www.ballwatchusa.com
Country
Region
It's Ed Koehn. When hthis was made Koehn was using H. R. Ekegren on special watches. This one is very fine but not quite Ekegren level.

Here is Koehn signed example.
====\

ok, so your opinion is that Koehn who owned Ekegren at the time, only used the "Koehn" signature on "Speical watches"? Like a grade or a model?
 

Kevin Neathery

NAWCC Member
Apr 22, 2014
806
463
63
Country
Region
====\

ok, so your opinion is that Koehn who owned Ekegren at the time, only used the "Koehn" signature on "Speical watches"? Like a grade or a model?
Koehn used the Ekegren on the higher quality movements. At the time Ekegren would have been more recognizable for a name of quality. As to it being not good enough for an Ekegren label, I would think the eight adjustments could put it in that quality. I also believe I have seen this style of movement before but I need to look through my notes. I will need to see if this actually the same watch. But my vote is Koehn that is a PL but would have had the Ekegren name if it was not PL.

Note the Tiffany movements are usually 7 adj not 8.
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,346
1,689
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
I wrote that Koehn used the Ekegren name on special watches.

All of these I have seen are very high quality, but not every high grade grade Koehn was labeled Ekegren. All Koehn watches are high grade in my experience but they made at least three grades, adjusted, 8 adjustments and I speculate extra or observatory grade. I was not referring to this measure of quality. I was referring to its degree of being special.

The Koehn Ekegrens are unusual, like a repeater or a more complicated watch. I posted an example in the lovely ladies section where I think the special aspects were doing 8 adjustments on a very small watch and putting it into a very special gold and platinum case.

Another example is a watch I saw at a very high end auction. The house did not note anything unusual about the watch and but after some looking I noticed that all of its jewels are blue sapphires. This is the sort of special thing that Koehn sold under the Ekegren label.

I have never seen one but I suspect that a an observatory chronometer regulated by Ekegren would have been labeled an Ekegren by Koehn; and I would love to see on even if it proved me wrong. I know both Koehn and Ekegren submitted competing entries in the Geneva trials but I have yet to see one of these.

Neither Koehn or Ekegren is now available to explain the rationale for the designation, so my speculation is just that, based on very interested observation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kevin Neathery

Kevin Neathery

NAWCC Member
Apr 22, 2014
806
463
63
Country
Region
None of the Ekegren watches in my list contained any complications. All were time only in various 18k or Plat cases. I have seen the blue jewels in a Koehn. The significant difference I see, in what may be seen as a base Ekegren marked Koehn, is the 8 adjustments and 19+ jewel counts. The plates/bridges may be the same as a Koehn but obviously more attention was paid to the precision and quality of an Ekegren marked movement. Just my thoughts.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dr. Jon

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,346
1,689
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
My view that the Ekegren Koehn specials is based on what I found in searches of the Antiquorum archive. I just checked and it is not available any more.

I have searched the catalogs (Antiquorum and Crott PDF's) I have saved on my computer and found a a Koehn Split second Chronograph in a US made case a, Koehn Ekegren Blue sapphire with winding indicator, a Koehn Ekegren Repeater with split chrono and a simple 21 jewel blue sapphire Koehn Ekegren. The Koehn split went to a Detroit Jeweler

The apparently simple 21 jewel Ekegren one was described without mention of any unusual feature. When I saw this I was curious since I believe they are have something special and checked the extra photos on the site and found it has blue sapphires.

The Ekegren Koehn examples are all unusual and likely to have been special orders. The ones I found all went to Caldwell in Philadelphia. This designation may have been tied to this retailer (Three examples of three is significant but not conclusive) or it may simply have been whim. Caldwell sold Ekegren watche before Koehn bought the firm and the Caldwell presentation wood boxes did not change much from Ekegren to Koehn.

Possibly we are overthinking this and they did not have rules, or did this at the request of Caldwell. They are all certainly worthy of a close look.
 

John Pavlik

NAWCC Member
Dec 30, 2001
2,316
671
113
Green Bay, Wi
Country
Region
Thanks to everyone’s comments on this movement... interesting for sure... I guess I should of checked
The most obvious book I have, but then probably would not have learned as much as I did from all of your
Posts... Much appreciated... I will be looking for an example, to buy, to see all the wonderful comments in
hand ....
 

Ethan Lipsig

NAWCC Gold Member
Jan 8, 2006
2,965
3,804
113
73
Pasadena, CA
Country
Region
I don't think I can shed much light on how Koehn-Ekegrens differed from Koehn-Koehns, but the 11 examples in my collection might be helpful in identifying differences.

ED. KOEHNS
18k Koehn OF #34,434
IMG_6641_edited.JPG
18k Koehn OF #77,555
IMG_0648_edited.JPG
18k Koehn OF Minute Repeater #78,570
IMG_9512_edited.JPG

18k Koehn OF #86,864
IMG_8134_edited.JPG
14k Caldwell PL Koehn OF #88,135
IMG_0592_edited.JPG

KOEHN-EKEGRENS

18k Caldwell PL OF #70,509
IMG_8619_edited.JPG
18k Caldwell OF Minute Repeater #78,029
IMG_4444.JPG


PRE-KOEHN EKEGRENS

18k Caldwell PL OF, no visible serial number
IMG_0204_edited.JPG
18k Caldwell PL OF Chronograph, no visible serial number
IMG_2860.JPG
18k J. Calame PL Hunter Chronograph, no visible serial number
DSC04328.JPG
18k Ekegren Hunter #15,851
IMG_2826.JPG
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Ethan Lipsig

NAWCC Gold Member
Jan 8, 2006
2,965
3,804
113
73
Pasadena, CA
Country
Region
To expand slightly on what I said in the previous post,
  • Based on my collection, all my Ekegrens and Koehn-Ekegrens seem to be higher grade watches than Koehns.
  • None of my Koehns have movements similar to any of my Ekegrens or Koehn-Ekegrens.
  • Two of my Koehns have substantially the same movement, ##86,864 and 88,135.
  • Koehn #34,434 has a movement that appears to have been based on a Rannaz ebauche. See Identifying maker: “Gruen” signed 11.25L pin set movement.
  • Koehn made at least some Ekegrens that closely resembled the pre-Koehn Ekegrens. Compare Koehn-Ekegren #70,509 to the first of my pre-Koehn Ekegrens shown above. One difference that isn't visible is that Koehn-Ekegren does not have the "trick" setting mechanism of its pre-Koehn counterpart (a lever beside the cuvette that retracts automatically when the back cover is closed).
  • 50% of my pre-Koehn Ekegrens and Koehn-Ekegrens have complications, e.g., chronographs, only 20% of my Koehns have complcations. This suggests, perhaps falsely, that a higher percentage of Ekegrens had complications than Koehns.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

samham

Registered User
Jul 18, 2011
1
1
3
I wrote that Koehn used the Ekegren name on special watches.

All of these I have seen are very high quality, but not every high grade grade Koehn was labeled Ekegren. All Koehn watches are high grade in my experience but they made at least three grades, adjusted, 8 adjustments and I speculate extra or observatory grade. I was not referring to this measure of quality. I was referring to its degree of being special.

The Koehn Ekegrens are unusual, like a repeater or a more complicated watch. I posted an example in the lovely ladies section where I think the special aspects were doing 8 adjustments on a very small watch and putting it into a very special gold and platinum case.

Another example is a watch I saw at a very high end auction. The house did not note anything unusual about the watch and but after some looking I noticed that all of its jewels are blue sapphires. This is the sort of special thing that Koehn sold under the Ekegren label.

I have never seen one but I suspect that a an observatory chronometer regulated by Ekegren would have been labeled an Ekegren by Koehn; and I would love to see on even if it proved me wrong. I know both Koehn and Ekegren submitted competing entries in the Geneva trials but I have yet to see one of these.

Neither Koehn or Ekegren is now available to explain the rationale for the designation, so my speculation is just that, based on very interested observation.
Dr. Jon,

I have a Koehn/Ekegren movement that may confirm your theory about an observatory grade chronometer watch. #87195 (serial number repeated adjacent balance wheel), 48.33 mm, 21 blue sapphire jewels, 8 adjustment. Unfortunately, someone scraped the original case (sadly rather recently I suspect). I have since had a new case made for it.

Best, AA4D8134-24B5-4C0B-8573-08FE8A264799.jpeg 27C6C067-A1D3-4385-A03A-C548508BF1CD.jpeg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Dr. Jon

netsch20

Registered User
Nov 26, 2020
26
51
13
23
Country
I don't think I can shed much light on how Koehn-Ekegrens differed from Koehn-Koehns, but the 11 examples in my collection might be helpful in identifying differences.

ED. KOEHNS
18k Koehn OF #34,434
View attachment 581667
18k Koehn OF #77,555
View attachment 581664
18k Koehn OF Minute Repeater #78,570
View attachment 581670
18k Koehn OF #86,864
View attachment 581668
14k Caldwell PL Koehn OF #88,135
View attachment 581663

KOEHN-EKEGRENS

18k Caldwell PL OF #70,509
View attachment 581669
18k Caldwell OF Minute Repeater #78,029
View attachment 581666

PRE-KOEHN EKEGRENS

18k Caldwell PL OF, no visible serial number
View attachment 581662
18k Caldwell PL OF Chronograph, no visible serial number
View attachment 581674
18k J. Calame PL Hunter Chronograph, no visible serial number
View attachment 581661
18k Ekegren Hunter #15,851
View attachment 581665
I have a couple more that I may add:

18k OF only marked as Tiffany, #82,811, but bears strong resemblance to your Koehn marked #86,864
20201225_133959.jpg

18k Hunter Ed Koehn marked, #86,881, which almost seems like a mix between your #34,434 with the wheel bridges of the #86,864, but then mirrored
20201127_130520.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ethan Lipsig

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,346
1,689
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
It is by Ed Koehn. See Illustration of Koehn watches in Shugart.
Koehn serial numbers are loosey goosey but 80,000 is about 1900 and 86000 about 1920.

The flying barrel model was often private labeled.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bei3

bei3

Newbie
May 13, 2017
3
2
3
Country
It is by Ed Koehn. See Illustration of Koehn watches in Shugart.
Koehn serial numbers are loosey goosey but 80,000 is about 1900 and 86000 about 1920.

The flying barrel model was often private labeled.
Thanks for the answer.
I found only 8 pieces of such movements on the Internet.
If anyone else has such a movement, please share a photo.

Ed. Koehn for Tiffany.png
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
85,047
2,773
113
86
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
This example is a more “standard” watch. I was attracted to the interesting dial signature. Note that in H.R. EKegren the letters E and K, the initials of Ed Koehn are capitalized.
The watch is very understated with an obviously platinum case with no precious metal mark.

I also like the nice Caldwell box.

C2C2A052-7248-4BC0-8CC7-01EF3AA902B5.jpeg 38D55B52-57B4-4394-A474-75215C36D9B7.jpeg BE2E9C6D-52CB-4EAD-86BD-69D0A4E0ED21.jpeg B25577E2-31FE-400B-B1FA-6726D8A005F7.jpeg CC4B2D80-5BBC-4EF9-8C4B-70D73E43CE53.jpeg 6F715610-E688-4338-B8F8-EA0C1D0EBB57.jpeg
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
85,047
2,773
113
86
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
7368B8BC-930A-47E2-9E37-836DBE878243.jpeg
I presume this signature is common, but it struck me as odd. I wish I could take a better picture. If you cannot read it, it says "H. R. EKEGREN made by Ed KOEHN Geneva Switzerland.
 
Last edited:

Forum statistics

Threads
176,402
Messages
1,544,016
Members
53,286
Latest member
ferkor
Encyclopedia Pages
1,064
Total wiki contributions
3,031
Last update
-