Tiffany Mark

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by John Pavlik, Sep 22, 2019.

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  1. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Dec 30, 2001
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    I have a number of Tiffany watches and was curious if anyone could tell me the significance of the case mark
    On most of their mid 1880’s watches... I understand they did have their own factory production for a short period... I would like to know if anyone has information on the Makers” mark and if is it an indication for the watch movement, the case or both? Identifying the movements they made is not very easy ...and would like to learn more about those watch movements produced by Tiffany themselves

    451FBF07-1219-4226-A804-0D8BBC9D362D.jpeg
     
  2. Audemars

    Audemars Registered User
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    I know my ancestors (among others) supplied them.
    The tradition is that Tiffany were rabidly obsessed with concealing suppliers' names and that there was an absolute prohibition on suppliers putting any kind of traceable mark or reference on their products (not just watches).
    I am told some watch suppliers hid references - underneath cocks or plates, for instance, but I have never seen an example.

    My grandfather and father did something similar on customer-branded wristwatches supplied to Mappin & Webb, Bensons and others, by having "Audemars" stencilled on the dial edges but concealed by the bezels - but I am sure their customers knew about it.

    Paul
     
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  3. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Jan 8, 2006
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    John, I cannot explain the "Makers" stamp on your watches case. I don't have any Tiffany-signed watches with that stamp

    I reviewed all 18 Tiffany-signed watches currently in my collection, dating from 1860 to WWII. Only one is solely signed by Tiffany (collection #282). Therefore, I see no basis for Paul’s comment that Tiffany imposed “an absolute prohibition on suppliers putting any kind of traceable mark or reference on their products.”

    Only three of my Tiffany watches have Tiffany-signed cases. Of these, one was also signed by Patek Philippe and another was also signed by Touchon.

    Watch with just a Tiffany-signed cuvette:
    • Patek Philippe, circa 1860, with an unsigned dial, an unsigned Patek Philippe movement, but a Patek Philippe-signed case (collection #682)
    682.JPG
    Watches with just Tiffany-signed dials; cases and movements are signed by others, except as noted:
    • International Watch Co. in 18k enameled Cress Arrow-signed case (collection #338)
    • International Watch Co. in silver purse watch Cress Arrow-signed case; movement signed just by Cress Arrow (collection #327)
    • C.H. Meylan in 14k Cress Arrow-signed case (collection #401)
    • C.H. Meylan in platinum Cress Arrow-signed case, with Cress Arrow-signed movement (collection #412)
    • C.H. Meylan in 18k enameled Cress Arrow-signed case, with Cress Arrow-signed movement (collection #617)
    • Ulysses Nardin in 18k enameled Nardin case with unsigned Nardin movement (collection #526)
    • Unsigned movement (likely unsigned Aggasiz 9.5 Ligne P.C.V.) in fancy 18k enameled and jeweled unsigned case (collection #591)
    • Touchon in 18k unsigned case, with original Tiffany box (collection #570)
    • Touchon in 18k Touchon-signed case (collection #588)
    • Touchon in 18k Touchon-signed case, with original Tiffany box (collection #636)
    • Waltham in 18k Matalene-signed cigar-cutter case (collection #453)
    Watches with just Tiffany-signed dials and movements; movements and cases are signed by others except as noted:
    • Tiffany PL (likely unsigned Aggasiz 9.5 Ligne P.C.V.) in fancy 18k enameled and pearl-studded unsigned case (collection #667)
    • Touchon in 18k A. Wittnauer-signed case (collection #301)
    • Touchon in 18k and platinum in Touchon-signed case (collection #392)
    • Touchon in 18k unsigned case (collection #688)
    Watches with Tiffany-signed dials, movements, and cases:
    • Tiffany PL possibly made by Patek Philippe or H.R. Ekegren; only signed by Tiffany (collection #282)
    282.JPG
    • Touchon in 18k case; case and movement also signed by Touchon (collection #623)
    623.JPG

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  4. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    Thanks Ethan, For your info... I do have an early Patek for Tiffany, much like yours... attached is photo of one of the numbered and signed movements I am wondering about ... it’s a five minute repeater and I can not find a similar layout from any Swiss manufacturers ....Also a few photos of the early Tiffany Patek.. I do have 3-4 more of the Tiffany & Co. Makers marked cases ...like the one posted in the initial thread ..

    80AB07BF-5054-4F08-B1FB-F1451744B511.jpeg 83664D24-3F49-4379-B7CA-89E554A8D19F.jpeg 881E249C-6D7D-4CDE-9B00-DBEB47209BA7.jpeg 365D1768-6C03-48D9-9A56-989E878EA4D0.jpeg B0EBA6CE-1842-4F8A-AE32-E1CC622623AC.jpeg
     
  5. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    Lovely watches, John. You are right about your ladies hunter PP being like the early PP in my post. Both watch have fancy hunter cases (but your watch's case is fancier), the same dial, and the same type of movement.

    I don't know who made your 5-minute repeater. C.H. Meylan made or at least signed a fairly similar minute repeater movement, and reportedly made 5-minute repeaters, but I have never seen one.

    1.jpg

    However, some or perhaps most C.H. Meylans were made for Meylan by other firms or based on other firm's ebauches. One of those firms was H.L. Matile. Its #10,909 is a minute repeater that closely resembles the Meylan shown above, but reversed to be an open-face movement. The Meylan I am showing appears to be a hunter-case movement. Your watch or its ebauche could have been made by Meylan, Matile, or another firm, possibly J.J. Badollet, which I suspect was the source of Meylan 3/4 plate movements or ebauches.
     
  6. mosesgodfrey

    mosesgodfrey Newbie

    Aug 30, 2017
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    Amazing watches, gents!

    John—I’m curious, what other hallmarks are in the “Makers” marked cases?
     
  7. John Pavlik

    John Pavlik Registered User
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    No other hallmarks on these cases... That’s the reason that I am curious about the mark... Nothing
    that I’ve been able to research has turned up much .....
     
  8. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
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    Sep 22, 2015
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    John,

    I have no experience of high class Swiss movements in gold Tiffany cases. I have looked briefly at English movements that were cased in the US and acquired a few reference books to cover silver hallmarks. Using that very limited experience, I can only offer a scan from Rainwater's book covering Tiffany's silver marks ...

    Tiffany & Co001.jpg

    From this it would come as no surprise that the marks on gold cases would be many and various.

    I hope that helps

    John
     
  9. mosesgodfrey

    mosesgodfrey Newbie

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    Thanks for the clarification, John. So to your question, the mark seems to indicate the case was made in the US by T&Co.

    There is an 18k T&Co 1890 Pocket Watch with same “Makers” mark currently listed on a major auction site. Numbers match the Patek movement inside. One pic is an extract from the archives, which states movement was sold without a case.

    I cannot say why other cases do/do not have this mark, other than to offer that some T&Co. cases I’ve seen from this time bear Swiss hallmarks and are signed/confirmed by archives to have been pre-cased by movement maker. Perhaps the mark is to differentiate & “dress up” the in-house work on finer items.
     
  10. Dr. Jon

    Dr. Jon Registered User
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    I suspect Tiffany made a lot of their own cases in their own shop. They imported many that were cased in Switzerland but these carry Swiss Hallmarks. The ines with only the Tiffany mark were probably made in New York or in Switzerland.

    Many large Jewelers had very well equipped shops with all the equipment needed to make a case. I am sure Tiffany had such capability but it they had too many to do they probably outsourced it to local gold or silversmiths, who were readily available locally.

    I have a an Ekegren they cased which is in a case designed for lever setting but with a stem wind watch. This mix up suggests the movement and case were done by separate suppliers
    468167-296d4e7c843613c26dfbfa6ecc5bb967.jpg

    The interesting issue to me was whether Tiffany mark 18K gold was really 18K most US casemakers were low by about 1/2 carat.
     

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