Thoughts on paint

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by KurtinSA, Apr 2, 2018.

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  1. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Next up is this Schatz Model 49 dated "3 56". As you can see, the paint on the columns and pendulum are chipping away. The dial is very crinckley and really beyond help as far as I can tell...but is "presentable" from a slight distance. The other stuff though looks bad. It appears that the base was never painted.

    My past experience with painting something didn't go well at all...not something I really want to repeat. I plan on polishing the base and bringing back the brass. It would be nice if the columns and pendulum could be touched up in some way. What are my options?

    Thanks...Kurt

    SchatzPaint1.jpg SchatzPaint2.jpg
     
  2. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #2 John Hubby, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
    Kurt, for the posts I do the following:
    • Strip the old paint, then polish the brass in your usual way.
    • Removed all residual polish using acetone or lacquer thinner.
    • Cut a strip of painter's tape to the exact width of the unpainted location in the center of each post and put it in place. Leave a small tab sticking up so it can be easily removed after painting.
    • Place the posts on a wooden dowel that is a close but not tight fit, then "chock" the dowel in place using flat toothpicks at either end of the post. Warm the part somewhat using a hair dryer before application of the paint. Place one end of the rod on a firm support like a wood block with a "V" notch to keep the rod in position, then spray paint while you are rotating it to get an even, "wet" look and then stop. Continue to rotate the rod for a couple of minutes to be sure you don't get any running. I use Tamiya or Testor's spray model lacquer of matching color, they have a range of colors that are quite good. You may have to order online to get the color you want.
    Basically same procedure to repaint the pendulum ball covers except I just place them on a clean dry surface to paint. I also use the painter's tape for these to keep the bright brass center ring.

    When it involves repainting a base, I use a different method since it is almost impossible to get painter's tape to hold in position to have the bright rings that are there originally. I do cover the center of the base with paper and painter's tape but use an X-Acto knife to cut away excess tape around the periphery of the base center. Otherwise I use the same prep procedure and painting steps but for the base apply two coats, allowing the first to set for a couple of hours before applying the second. When the second coat is dry to a light touch, I again use the X-Acto knife to cut a line in the grooves around the circumference of each ring that is to remain unpainted. When this has been done, you can lift the paint from the brass using the point of your knife, and then peel off the strip around the base. Very easy to do with some practice.
     
  3. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Thanks, John. I'll have to give that a try. First, I'll just try and get the clock running...I can always come back and paint things. Not sure I want to do the base in color, although the other 3-4 varieties of this style of Schatz all have a painted base. Don't know why this one doesn't...I can't see any signs it was ever painted...could be a replacement base. I have two Schatz clocks with unpainted bases.

    Kurt
     
  4. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    John -

    I presume you mean Tamiya paint. I googled Kamiya but couldn't find that.

    And Tamiya has TS and AS sprays for plastic models as well as PS sprays for polycarbonate models. Does it make a difference when using on brass?

    Kurt
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Typo, my bad. Have corrected in my post. I have not seen any difference on brass. When the metal is completely clean and free of any organic material the lacquer adheres quite well.
     
  6. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    I found some Testor gloss dark red locally...the top of the spray can looked promising but after application, not so much!! The left is the original while the right is the dark red. Have tried other ideas of finding this color. Tried the autoparts store, the big box hardware store. The hobby shop guy thought it was essentially the color of some early 1990s Chrysler cars...black cherry, code PM9 according to the Chrysler dealer. Looking online, it seems that their color claret red metallic PM4 is better. I tried a regular paint store and didn't get much help. Good ideas, but so far hitting dead ends.

    Kurt

    PaintSample.jpg
     
  7. Randy Beckett

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    The lighting makes all the difference in how a color looks. Even though I know it is the same piece, the color appears much different in your original picture and the latest one, even though I assume both were taken with the same camera. Did you take the piece with you when you went to the paint store? I have seen them use a electronic color detecting Gizmo on a paint chip to match amazingly close to a chip of paint on a house. Assume someone could do the same to match the appropriate type paint for this.

    Nice color. I would call it some kind of "Plum" looking at your last picture.
     
  8. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    I agree with Randy that they can match colors pretty precisely. I have had good luck by just taking a small piece of trim and they matched it... The problem might be quantity.. I think my paint store only mixes by the gallon.... that's a lot of clocks!
     
  9. KurtinSA

    KurtinSA Registered User
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    Yes, different lighting for the two pictures, indoors versus outdoors...same smartphone. I did have the part by a local paint store, one I'd used before to determine colors for another clock I was working on. Those results were less than wonderful. But today, the same store said they couldn't use their color matching "gizmo" on such a small curved piece.

    Kurt
     
  10. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Correction... My buddy just told me that Home Depot mixed him up a half pint color matched 'sample' to test on his drywall.. He did not remember the price but said it was pretty cheap for the small sample. Maybe all paint stores will mix up small quantities.
     
  11. Peter W

    Peter W Registered User

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    A small hole drilled in wooden peg and end of about 30cm of string threaded and tied off. Tie other end so all is hanging down. Twist the string a few times and release when ready to spray so the brass piece is spinning round. This lets you concentrate on the spray job while the unravelling string rotates.
     
  12. KurtinSA

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    Interesting idea! I was able to chuck up the wooden dowel in my drill and spin them while spraying. I wasn't chewing gum at the same time, so it worked out OK!

    I found some paint that looks promising. A Chrysler and a Ford paint...they're metallic so I'll have to see if that works against me. I'll probably be able to see the flakes in bright sunlight, but maybe for the something sitting on a shelf maybe not so much. I'll do some test sprays soon.

    Kurt
     
  13. KurtinSA

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    OK, here are some more paint samples. As I said both of these are metallic so there's going to be some metal flake in them. One picture is in bright sun, the other is more or less in the same lighting condition inside as the first set of picture...at least it represents traditional lighting one might have in a room on a shelf, etc. This is only two coats...I'd probably go with a third coat and likely need to improve me technique. But it's a start.

    In full sun, the left sample seems to look better. Inside, it's not so cut and dried but the right one seems like it would be better. And the metal flake really doesn't jump out. When I hold the dial up behind these with indoor light, the right one looks pretty good. I've already spent more on paint than I have on acquiring the clock...I hate to make such a big production out it.

    Kurt

    PaintSample2Sun.jpg PaintSample2Inside.jpg
     
  14. PatH

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    Looking good! Think of it as a learning experience on where to acquire the paint as well as technique. And we all get to share in the learning! :D
     
  15. Harry Hopkins

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    I agree with PatH.. once you figure all of this out the rest of us will benefit. I understand that you have spent more on paint that the clock but I imagine we all have spent more on a part or a tool to make a part for a clock than the clock was worth... It's what makes up happy that counts.
     
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  16. KurtinSA

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    I'm made a few steps forward but not quite there. I ended up being directed to a paint place downtown, Finish Masters. I brought my original column with me and we looked at some paint chips. I chose one that was labeled burgundy...it looked a little light on paper but I thought it might darken with more layers. Well that didn't really happen. While it is more than good enough for what I'm doing, I felt it could be a closer color match. I went back today and they adjusted the quart I had purchased on Friday and made me up another spray can...looks much better in the can. It's an acrylic enamel paint.

    I'm certainly a novice at this. I've prepped the brass columns as suggested by John and chucked the wooden dowel in my electric drill. I can spin the dowel at a slow speed and apply coats of paint...they dry pretty fast. I'm holding the can about 12 inches away from the column. The result is a surface finish that is not smooth as the original factory paint was. I thought the paint would level a bit more than that. Research online suggests things that control orange peel are distance of spray, the nozzle, the mix of the paint with other chemicals like levelers. The people at the paint store say that's what you're going to get with spray paints.

    So, is that it? Is there anything I can do to get a smoother finish? It's more or less OK but was hoping to get it better. Looks like I can't control the nozzle or what's in the spray can. Should I get closer and/or spray thicker coats? I'm hoping to avoid runs.

    Thanks...Kurt
     
  17. Les Sanders

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    Try multiple thin color coats and then put a similar quality gloss clear over the color coat.
     
  18. KurtinSA

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    I think I might have reached a point where it's time to fish or cut bait! I've got two colors on the (viewer's) left and right columns...the right supposedly has a bit more black in the paint. I got tired of creating the brass bands, but at least I think I can do them. I put a little clear coat on both columns.

    So what do you think? It's clear that the columns are a bit darker...I suppose I could go back and get a little more red in the paint. But this is racking up some costs! And the clock likely won't be sitting on a shelf with this much light on it. Also wondering if the brass rings on the column are necessary...probably will need to as the balls will likely have that brass ring around the middle.

    Decisions....

    Kurt

    PaintLeftRight.jpg
     
  19. Jim_Miller

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    I like the left side better. The brass ring makes the column really stick out. However you decide to go, you’ve done an excellent job.
    Jim
     
  20. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    There are legs on some models (were they Kundos?) that had a separate ring in the middle of the leg and two separate colored tubes for the rest of the leg. Apparently this one does not and I would think someone tried to make it look like it had this brass ring in the middle. If I am correct, then the legs would be solid in color and the matching to the original color in the first pictures might be the wrong color anyhow. I think the original color was a darker maroon than the first pictures show.
     
  21. MartinM

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    This model definitely had the brass ring in the middle of the column and at both ends and a matching color base with pinstripe at the lower edge.
    I have this colck (and some with the diamond dial) in black, burgundy, teal and blue and all have the same combination of paint treatments below the movement.
     
  22. KurtinSA

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    I might not have been clear in that these columns are "practice" at this point. I've been trying various colors, techniques, pinstriping, etc. I do plan on using my pinstriping tape on the final spray attempt in order to have the "rings" on the columns and balls. On the column on the right, I got lazy and decided not to put the tape on first and just went and sprayed to get a sense of the color.

    I'm having a hard time with the color difference. For the purpose of what I'm doing, I'm sure it's just fine. But the more I look at it, I can really see the difference. Plus, when the balls get painted, if they're darker than the dial, that will be a lot of darker color at the bottom half of the clock.

    Kurt
     
  23. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Hello Kurt,
    I did misunderstand the practice paint; thanks for straightening me out. Another thought: time in the light may have faded the red a little and your new, slightly deeper maroon could be spot on:)
     
  24. KurtinSA

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    #24 KurtinSA, Jun 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
    Well, I practiced and practiced. Yesterday I went for it! Cleaned the original parts, striped the balls and the columns, and put three light paint coats and one clear coat on the parts. Today, 24 hours later, I decided to remove the tape. On the top half of the balls, I grabbed a tail end of the tape and slowly pulled it away from the paint line. I was successful in removing the tape and leaving a decent looking top.

    But things didn't go so well on the columns. For the ends of each, I did the same thing...grabbing a tail of the tape and pulling away from the paint line. Went well. But with the tape around the middle of the column, I had to pull straight up. It didn't take long to tear the paint, leaving a bad rip and ruining it. I chose not to use a razor blade around each side of the tape, bolstered by the earlier success. Drat!

    So, I figured I'd better use a blade around the tape on the second column. Things went well, but afterwards noticed a small paint "hair" and used the tweezers to pull it. Wrong! It pulled some paint up. So both columns ruined.

    Any thoughts about this? Did I not wait long enough for curing? Is there better preparation of the surfaces? After polishing, I used the acetone to clean any organics. I'll definitely use the razor blade to cut the paint away from the tape next time. Maybe I'll get lucky. I really had the length of time this is taking. ;)

    Kurt

    Update: Just checked with the paint people. It's a fast dry acrylic enamel...looks like my definition of "fast" is different than theirs. I have little experience with painting. I was told I needed to wait at least an hour if not more between the light coats. That's what I'll do next time.
     
  25. Peter W

    Peter W Registered User

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    Maybe “roughen” surface with slightly coarser emery paper where the paint goes? Wipe brass with thinners to remove any hand oil. And always cut around tape. Good luck!
     
  26. MartinM

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    You're just waiting too long to pull your tape. Pull the tape as soon as the part is able to be touched without leaving fingerprint marks (Test by spraying another item and using it, by pressing with your finger, to tell if the paint is 'dry' enough to pull the tape.) For lacquers, a matter of minutes. Other paints may take several days. But this lifting sounds like the paint is just too well-cured to break the connection at the edge of the tape.
     
  27. KurtinSA

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    Could be Martin, but that's completely opposite to what the paint store told me. If I was doing one coat, maybe. But since I've been doing multiple thin coats, I think it's necessary to let the coats dry to some degree.

    I know nothing about painting. At this stage, I painted the parts late Saturday and have been a little leery to touch them. I'll probably give it a shot later today. But I will be using a razor blade along the edge of the pinstripes.

    Kurt
     
  28. KurtinSA

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    I finally screwed up my courage and used a razor blade to cut the paint away from the edge of the tape. After a nervous 10 minutes it was done with no faux pas. Whew!

    Assembled the clock. I struggled with getting the paint right, and thought I had a good match. Well, I'm less than satisfied, but it is what it is. I'm not doing that again for a while! Now to consider my options in getting it to my sister. I probably shouldn't tell about the color issues, but she'll probably notice. But she should be proud that I can take a $25 clock and turn it into a $150 clock. ;)

    Kurt

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  29. MartinM

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    Having done quite a bit of this in the past, I can confidently tell you the advice you got was wrong.
    If you pull it off too soon, you risk compromising a sharp edge or introducing hairy little strands like threads that inevitably fall on a part of your surface you don't want.
    Waiting too long and pulling the tape at a bad angle causes the issue you had. The tape should be peeled back a bit like you would see when peeling open the lid of a can of sardines.
    Another thing that can happen if you wait too long (especially if you put on the paint very heavily) id that the tape is weaker than the paint and it ends up tearing while trying to break the line between the paint and tape edge.
    When To Take Off Masking And Pinstriping Tape - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board.
     
  30. whatgoesaround

    whatgoesaround Registered User

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    Kurt, I think your paint job, while not the match you desired, looks great! Job well done.
     

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