• We are aware of the performance issues with the forum. These are due to problems with Comcast's shared lines in the Columbia, PA area. On December 15, we signed a contract to bring a dedicated fiber line to the forum servers. It should take somewhere between 30 and 90 days to install. Thank you for your patience.

18th c English Thomas Cartwright, magnificent bracket clock

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
I would assume that the Etherington is a bit earlier than mine - sine I bought the Cartwright clock I have seen a few like that which have side panels with violes in so that you can view the movement, but they are all a bit earlier. Mine seems to be designed to have coloured silk behind the panels
 

NigelW

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
550
79
28
London and Kent
Country
I think the Etherington is about 1700, so maybe ten to fifteen years older? Do you have a copy of Sunny Dzik's book on backplate engraving? Yours is what he describes an asymmetrical vine engraving with a frond cartouche; the cartouche style he puts at 1700-1720.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
I haven't purchased that one yet, so good to know. My best guess on this clock is that it was made 1750-120, but probably closer to 1715.

I've done a bit of research on Cartwright since I first posted this thread, but there is not all that much info around, especially considering that he was *the* Royal Watchmaker to King George II, the same position that was held after he died by Benjamin Grey, who is far more well known. One problem in resaerching him is that there were so many more famous Thomas Cartwrights, including a Cartwright who was designer for the Royal Exchange - so searching for Thomas Cartwright Royal Exchange (Cartwright had a shop there probably on the Threadneedle street side) does not help...
 
  • Like
Reactions: NigelW

NigelW

Registered User
Jan 2, 2015
550
79
28
London and Kent
Country
Are you planning to convert it back to verge? If so I would be most interested in seeing how you get on as I have the same road ahead of me.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
At the moment, lack of skills, and lack of budget, mean that I am focussing on getting the case restored, and the movement serviced with all functions (including moon phase) back in order. So unfortunately conversion back to verge will have to wait...
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
11,573
1,074
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Wonderful though this is, my price for selling my soul would be nothing short of a Tompion.
There was a Tompion longcase went 2-3 years ago for £30000. However a small Tompion bracket went for £1.2 million more recently. It was a bit special. No complications, just the best provenance.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NigelW

DeanT

Registered User
Mar 22, 2009
1,599
442
83
Australia
Country
Region
I really enjoy the detailed and long threads on early English clocks. With a bit of luck we can see further photos of the movement and case now its been moved to the restorers.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
Hi Dean

Movement is now with the restorer, so I have some more photos to share - so far just as received. No idea why they made such an inappropriate choice for the fusee cable..

For Sharing.jpg

For Sharing 1.jpg
For Sharing 2.jpg
IMG_3645.JPG IMG_3649.JPG
 

DeanT

Registered User
Mar 22, 2009
1,599
442
83
Australia
Country
Region
Am I right in thinking they cut the mock pendulum aperture back plate to allow the pins to drive the moon phase?
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
It's difficult to tell just from the photos. From what I can see, I'm guessing that someone didn't understand how the date was supposed to be driven (which seems to be via the inner set of 6 pins you can see on the upper of the two wheels connected to the hour). So they added a pin to the moonphase wheel to drive the date wheel, then had to cut the mock pendulum backplate to accommodate that. Then at some later stage the pin for the date wheel has been put back on the lower of the two drive wheels.

How someone who owned a clock like this allowed someone to work on it who was stupid enough to use that wire is one of the things I will never understand. At least with the restorer Nick has put me on to it is in good hands now...
 

Ralph

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 22, 2002
5,388
349
83
Country
Phil, what a great clock and maker. Congratulations.

To throw another speculation out there….. could the moon phase and it’s associated parts be a later modification? The 6 pin wheel might be a repurposed date drive wheel. It also looks like it may have had a night shutoff at one time.:???:

It’ll be interesting to see what Nick’s restorer concludes.

Is the clock in England?

Ralph
 

Ralph

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 22, 2002
5,388
349
83
Country
Phil, here is an image from Barder's book on Georgian Bracket Clocks. It is by Claudius du Chesney. It has a very similar lunar indication on it's dial.

IMG_20210809_112959548.jpg

I noticed after posting this, Dean has already discovered. Youth. ;)

Here are some spandrels for Loomes, Brass Dial Clocks book.
IMG_20210809_115030588_(1600_x_1200).jpg

Ralph
 
Last edited:

Jevan

Registered User
Jul 31, 2014
62
27
18
Although the movements bear little relationship here’s another Du Chesne with a penny moon.
It is interesting that rather than two times 29 ½ the age of the moon is engraved up to 59 days and the moon drive appears to be a series of idle gears.

1.JPG 2.JPG 3.JPG 4.JPG
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Ticktocktime100

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
Phil, what a great clock and maker. Congratulations.

To throw another speculation out there….. could the moon phase and it’s associated parts be a later modification? The 6 pin wheel might be a repurposed date drive wheel. It also looks like it may have had a night shutoff at one time.:???:

Ralph
Hi Ralph

I am fairly sure that the moonphase on this clock is original - the penny moon style was used on bracket clocks by a handful of makers around this time, when makers were experimenting with what to put in the arch (DuChesne being the main one I have found, but I have also seen another clock by James deFontaine which has this feature). The drive to the moonphase is similar to that used by others. For example, see this one, which while not identical (it drives from a bevel gear rather than an arrangement of pins) uses the same type of shaft to take the drive to the moon wheel.

IMG_3578-2.jpg

What neither the restorer nor I can work out is why someone added an extra pin to the moon drive wheel that necessitated a cut out in the backing plate for the false pendulum bob. Apparently this is not in the correct place to engage with the date wheel, so couldn't have been for that.

I am interested in your comment about the night shut-off. The clock has strike/silent, although the lever for that is missing at the moment. What are you looking at that makes you think there was once a night shut-off?
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
To follow up on the comment about the hole for the extra pin, it is the one shown in Red on the photo below. The one in green is the drive for the date wheel,. There are separate wheels to drive the date and moonphase. The moonphase is driven by the arrangement of 6 pins on the wheel with the red marking - these pins engage with the shaft that is connected to the back of the dial plate.

If anyone has any ideas about why the hole highlighted in red was made (which necessitated cutting a segment out of the backing plate for the false pendulum bob) I'd love to know!! Apparently it is too low to engage with the date wheel.

For Sharing.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: Alex K

Ralph

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 22, 2002
5,388
349
83
Country
A
Hi Ralph

I am fairly sure that the moonphase on this clock is original - <snip>t

<snip>Apparently this is not in the correct place to engage with the date wheel, so couldn't have been for that.

I am interested in your comment about the night shut-off. The clock has strike/silent, although the lever for that is missing at the moment. What are you looking at that makes you think there was once a night shut-off?
Seeing the Du Chesne clocks, I can see that it is not a stand alone configuration. I'll still leave the door slightly open where the 6 pin wheel might be a later repair by a lesser clockmaker. :???:

I may have been loose with the "night shutoff" term for the "no-strike-strike" switch?? I wasn't suggesting automatic night shutoff.

Ralph
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
11,573
1,074
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Has Peter worked out why the arbour that drives the lunar display runs up in front of the backplate for the mock pendulum aperture rather than behind it?
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
Turns out it was just fitted incorrectly. The plate fits in front of the arbour just as well as behind it
 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
11,573
1,074
113
Dorset
Country
Region
Turns out it was just fitted incorrectly. The plate fits in front of the arbour just as well as behind it
Ah, I had wondered about that, I had a look at it myself and thought that might be the case but the cutout misled me, I thought it might be to go over the mounting at the bottom, I didn't know about the extra pin.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
This is taking its time in restoration. The case is coming along nicely, but the movement hasn't been started yet... Photos of the case with the doors removed - looks like the gilding has survived fairly well...

This is not my work (I wouldn't know where to start on something like this), but done by Scott who does work for novice and Dean.

IMG_0008.jpg IMG_0009.jpg IMG_0010.jpg IMG_0011.jpg

Here is a before picture for comparison

Case Front on.JPG

The basket top is apparently quite thin metal, and needs to be properly reattached so it may look a little less wobbly when finally done. But the ebony veneers (apparently real ebony rather than ebonised fruit wood) and metal mounts have been restored superbly! Still needs a set of finials for the upper basket top, which will have to be made.

Still don't know where I can get spandrels to fit in the corners of the dial (see picture below) as these are an unusual shape - if anyone has any ideas, please let me now!

Spandrel Shape.jpg
 

DeanT

Registered User
Mar 22, 2009
1,599
442
83
Australia
Country
Region
That looking really good, befitting the quality of the clock and movement.

You could ask either of these two companies for spandrels. I think Devon does the casting for optimum but they might have a mould that might work for that shape.

 

novicetimekeeper

Registered User
Jul 26, 2015
11,573
1,074
113
Dorset
Country
Region
That is looking stunning Zedric, I was going to visit Scott but that was the week my Mum got sick from Covid so I didn't go. I look forward to seeing it in person.
 

zedric

NAWCC Member
Aug 8, 2012
1,832
351
83
Country
Region
That looking really good, befitting the quality of the clock and movement.

You could ask either of these two companies for spandrels. I think Devon does the casting for optimum but they might have a mould that might work for that shape.

Hi Dean - thanks - I'll pass these on to Peter, who is doing the restoration of the movement..

Cheers

Phil
 

Forum statistics

Threads
170,820
Messages
1,491,246
Members
49,911
Latest member
mwilson315
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,967
Last edit
E. Howard & Co. by Clint Geller