Thomas Bolton, 8 day longcase, 1740?

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by novicetimekeeper, Dec 19, 2016.

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  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    I don't know who Thomas Bolton was, I can't find a listing for him. I guess a Northerner by style, and the spandrels suggest the dial is around 1740, but is it asupposed to be with this movement?

    The seconds arbour doesn't centre on the hole, the dial feet at the top look like they have been moved, and the ringing on the dial feet is usually matched with ringed and knopped pillars not finned and knopped.

    I'll take the chapter ring off when I get back tomorrow and see if it looks like the dial feet were moved.

    This was in the case I bought for the Baker, the case is a high quality repro made in 1910, it may be the whole thing was put together.

    DSC_0146.jpg View attachment 325881
     
  2. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

    Jun 1, 2006
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    Hi Nick, the picture won't load so I gave up but the only possible Thomas Bolton listed by Loomes is a chap working circa 1700-20 with place unknown.
     
  3. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    It has the small urn spandrels Jonathan. That's a bit early for those I think though that doesn't mean it isn't possible. They weren't a popular spandrel. I don't see that many northern clocks but I have never seen those offsets for the dial feet. I would have thought it would be easier to plan the cutouts to suit an eight day this layout suits a thirty hour.
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    I went back to the books, Brian Loomes has those spandrels as from 1725 in his brass dials book, I've seen them on Northern clocks from around 1730 so I think we could put this into the 1720s which stylistically is ok for a Northern clock.

    A friend who is an experienced repairer says he has seen those offset dial feet before so this one is beginning to look all good.

    I think it had a repeat mechanism which it has now lost but other wise all is present.

    Given I bought the clock for the case I think that's pretty good.
     
  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Feb 9, 2013
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    Hi Nick,

    I like your your clock, and think it is earlier than you think. I would place it around 1720. "Loomes 21st. Century has Thomas Bolton place not known c1700-c1720". that could mean he worked a little longer.

    This is a clock that would interest John Robey E-mail (john@mayfieldbooks.co.uk) Of great interest are those little birds on the inner dial, it could be these were personalized for a customer I am sure Brian Loomes or John Robey will help.

    Regards,

    Allan.
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    As I said above, I think 1720s is probably right. Birds are a very common feature on longcase dials, I particularly like them too.

    Not sure that there will be much for anybody to get too excited about with this one, but I will take the dial off today and take pictures of the front of the movement. It seems to have some similarities to my Fennel and I should get the dial off that today too.

    While I wait for the Baker to return from having the strike fixed I think I'll set this one up in the case and get it running for Christmas.
     
  7. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    dial plate back

    DSC_0152.jpg
     
  8. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    front of movement

    DSC_0151.jpg
     
  9. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    Nick,

    I noticed the "tool" to keep the gut from birdnesting, neat and simple. Is this your invention or someone else?

    Joe
     
  10. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    long established before my time.
     
  11. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Pictures ok today so able to have a look. It is a very nice dial and very like as you say pattern 12 in Loomes' Brass Dial Clocks but the one on this clock looks a more open pattern and has a taller point at the top. It also doesn't match C&W's small urn pattern 24 which frustratingly they don't date. On that basis I wouldn't go solely on the spandrels to date it and the other dial features aren't out of keeping with a date around 1720 or so. Also many of the dates in Loomes' big red book for makers are not definitive so it wouldn't be unreasonable to attribute this clock to the Thomas Bolton I mentioned above.

    I've also never seen those offset dial feet needed to fit it to that cartwheel dial but then I don't get to see behind the dials of too many longcases. I suppose if you are using up dial stock then it is an improvised way of fitting a movement to it that otherwise wouldn't and there don't appear to be any spare holes to indicate another movement was once fitted.
     
  12. DeanT

    DeanT Registered User

    Mar 22, 2009
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    Like Johnathon suggested the offset dial feet would normally indicate an associated dial. However, the lack of obvious other alterations and holes makes me think it may well be original. I can imagine the conversation between the clockmaker and his apprentice....."you cut too much out of the dial you idiot". Or maybe it was ordered from London and was already cut out? Thomas Bolton may not have had a set location during this time and therefore didn't sign a location on his dials. Probably we will never know.
     
  13. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    The cutouts are a bit of a misnomer as they are part of the casting usually and on this one that's how it was done. This arrangement of cutout suits a 30 hour, I don't look at many Northern clocks, and even fewer Northern 8 days so I don't know if they had two arrangements of cutout, but my friend tells me he has seen this before.

    It is a nice dial, it can't stay in that case but I will be keeping it I think. It probably won't be running though, there is only so much striking we can put up with in such a small house!


    EDIT: It will get a run, as the case is now installed and the baker is away until next year to finalise the strike. I'll put it back in the case and set it up for a couple of months. I've checked it over, the hands were put on wrong but now it strikes when it should.
     
  14. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    By the way, the technique only works if the auction house haven't already messed it up, I'm in the process of restringing the clock.
     
  15. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    After a bit of a tussle with the tangle it is all working very happily.
     
  16. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Jan 22, 2002
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    Nick, your movement has an unusual strike arrangement for an English clock. It looks sort of Germanic or Continental. I'm not suggesting it is not English, but it seems the maker had some nontraditional influences.

    Ralph
     
  17. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    which aspect Ralph, you will need to talk me through it? It is running now but I could take more pics if needed.
     
  18. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    There's no tail on the gathering pallet to stop the strike train. When the rack hook, which I assume is on an arbor and not a post, drops into the deep slot on the rack, there should be a detent between the plates that engages a pin on a wheel to stop the train.

    You don't show that side of the movement, so I am making some assumptions.

    Ralph
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Ah, I did think that deep slot on the rack was something that I had not seen before.

    I'll have a look at the movement from above tomorrow and see if I can get a pic without taking the movement out again.

    My 30 hour racks don't have a tail on the gathering pallet either but they don't have the deep slot. No tail on the Baker either, as that is gathered by a pin on a wheel, that's not here so I can't look at that one.
     
  20. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    This one stopped ticking yesterday, I was a bit concwerned, it had been doing so well. Turned out the weights had both come to rest with an edge on the lower door frame. Will wedge the bottom of the case out a bit or push the movement further back if it will go.
     
  21. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    more pics for you Ralph. There is a wheel at the back with a pin on it, when the rack hook drops into that cutout a stop drops low enough to obstruct the pin.

    DSC_0177.jpg DSC_0178.jpg DSC_0179.jpg
     
  22. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I had a look at the two 30 hour racks I have to one side at the mo, one has the cutout in the rack the other not, both though rely on a shape on the end of the rack to stop the gathering pallet,
     
  23. P.Hageman

    P.Hageman Registered User

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    Hi Nick, just saw this one today. Congrats, I think its a VERY nice dial and movement and after inspecting your pictures I would bet this is all original! It has the touch of a rural maker which makes it more interesting for me. The way he arranged the strike levers is beautifull and very much a personal touch. Looking at the back of the dial I think mister Bolton struggled in getting everything right :coolsign: In my humble opinion much more interesting then a London made movement from that era. I will try finding some more info on mister Bolton.
     
  24. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Glad you like it Peter, I'm very fond of provincial clocks myself. I did buy it for the case so it will get ejected in favour of the Baker but it is a very good looking clock and will stay in the collection. The case is the wrong style for it anyway.

    It would be good if anybody could find out more about him, not much seems to be known. I'm assuming Northern but I do have a southern clock with a cutout dial plate so who knows.

    Although I bought it for the case it is very happily ticking away by the side of me as I write.
     
  25. gift

    gift Registered User

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    Hi
    I think it should have happened in 1710, but at present I can not get evidence. sorry
     
  26. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I can't think it is that early, apart from the spandrels which are not recorded as early as that, the style of the dial suggests later for a provincial clock and being a Northern Clock that would put it later still. It is also rack strike and I think a rack strike provincial clock would be very unusual at 1710. I have a provincial rack strike from around that time but that in itself is a very unusual clock and is earlier in appearance than this one.

    Brian Loomes has a John Bolton in 1760 which is far too late, the one that gets a brief mention as being around 1720 seems the most likely character and I think early 1720s works for this clock.
     
  27. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    I see the pic from the beginning is missing, here it is again.

    Mr Bolton is competing with Mr Monkland for a case. Though Mr Monkland made a countwheel mocement with another attractive dial his movement is awaiting restoration, Mr Bolton might beat him to the post!

    DSC_0145.jpg
     

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