the trouble with gilbert

[tracker]

I have cleaned and re-bushed this Gilbert half- hour strike clock and now with it on the test stand I put it in motion. It runs fine except that when it begins to strike the hour the movement will not stop. the count lever does not drop down into any of the count wheel slots and the locking lever does not drop down into the locking cam. the photos may not help but here they are. Anyone ever had this problem with a Gilbert I have read Conover's book on the Gilbert but it hasn't sunk in what I have done wrong.

 

[John P]

Those Gilberts can be tricky sometimes, strike set up is critical. One or two teeth off on the maintenance cam or the stop wheel can cause problems with the strike.
When building this movement, get the strike working right first, you may have to loosen up the plates and make a wheel adjustment, don't worry about time keeping yet.
You might take a close look at the minute shaft and see what happens as the strike lever starts to lift.

Is it jamming somewhere.
This would cause the clock to stop. Is the countwheel lever in the correct hole in the plates? Will the strike run and stop correctly when you lift it? ​

David LaBounty has a great illustration of how all that works and the correct name of all the parts on his web site. If you study that a while, it may help you figure out whats out of whack.

 

[R&A]

Why is there a stick sticking through the movement by the butterfly ??

 

[shutterbug]

That one does not appear to have a stop pin, so the stop will be a hard stop when the lever enters the locking cam. That has to happen at the same time the lever enters the countwheel slot. You might be able to disengage the count wheel to move it if necessary, without separating the plates again.

 

[Tom Kloss]

Hi,
Shutter,
I've seen one of these movements before. I think there is suppose to be a stop pin. If you look closely at my highlight, That wheel has a small whole punched through the crossing which creates stop pin. If that stop is broken it may be the problem.

Tom

 

[Willie X]

These missing pins can easily be replaced with a small L shaped piece of 20 gauge brass wire. It's best to do the soldering and clean up with this wheel out of the movement. Put the long leg of the L shaped new pin on the opposite side of the wheel from the protruding pin. Make the solder fill the hole without running all over th place!
Willie X

 

[Uhralt]

These missing pins can easily be replaced with a small L shaped piece of 20 gauge brass wire. It's best to do the soldering and clean up with this wheel out of the movement. Put the long leg of the L shaped new pin on the opposite side of the wheel from the protruding pin. Make the solder fill the hole without running all over th place!
Willie X

Why would you use brass wire for this repair? Aren't these pins usually steel?

Uhralt

 

[wow]

Why would you use brass wire for this repair? Aren't these pins usually steel?

Uhralt

That particular pin is a cut out triangle shaped pin that is cut out of the brass wheel. Guess Willie is staying with brass.

 

[tracker]

Why is there a stick sticking through the movement by the butterfly ??

the peg wood is there to stop the motion of the movement while I was taking the photo.

 

[tracker]

Hi,
Shutter,
I've seen one of these movements before. I think there is suppose to be a stop pin. If you look closely at my highlight, That wheel has a small whole punched through the crossing which creates stop pin. If that stop is broken it may be the problem.

Tom

View attachment 489461

Hi Tom I have double checked the pin in the pic. and it is there. the whole gear and pinon seems to me to have a lot of end shake ,but even when moved to its limit in both directions the pin still hits the stop lever.

 

[Uhralt]

That particular pin is a cut out triangle shaped pin that is cut out of the brass wheel. Guess Willie is staying with brass.

Ah, I see. Somewhat similar to the hooks in some modern mainspring barrels.

Uhralt

 

[tracerjack]

Is tracker saying that the locking pin drops into its slot and the count lever falls into a slot on the count wheel, but the strike doesn't stop? Or is it that there is no count slot lined up for the count lever when the locking pin falls into its slot, and vice-versa? I know I always have a heck of time when trying to assemble keeping the count lever in a slot on the count wheel and the locking pin in its slot while lining up the warning pin, all the while getting the pivots in to close the plates. Sometimes when I'm just a little off, I pull the horseshoe clip on the count wheel, nudge it up over the gears and move it without separating the plates.

 

[tracker]

Thanks to everyone for the help. After more tinkering I see that if I allow the movement to enter the strike phase on it's own then the movement will not stop striking until the spring runs down or I stop it.But if I lift the count lever the movement only makes one or two revolutions of the cam before the drop lever catches.
I wonder if there is some sort of allinement problem since the drop lever never drops all the way into the slot on the cam and when it does stop on the edge of the cam the count lever is nowhere near any of the slots on the count wheel. Does offer any more insight to anyone? Thanks. Carl

 

[tracerjack]

I think you are right - that it is an alignment problem. My guess is that the locking pin or count lever needs height adjustment. I've been looking at the Gilbert I have on a stand. Looks exactly like yours. I see now that the locking pin and count lever are on the same arbor, so they they lift and fall together. They can't be out of sequence. But, their relationship in height does affect the lock. Sometimes lifting the count lever a tiny bit works, or else I have to adjust the locking pin. Really helps to have a wire bending tool. Since the two lift and fall together, the slots on the cam and the count wheel have to be aligned as well.

 

[Willie X]

When the warning lever is raised, the warning pin is released, to be caught about 1/3 turn later by a curved wire or sickle shaped stamping. This part is attached directly to the arbor which is actuated by the J hook. You may have to bend the catch wire upward slightly.

OTOH ... The third short lever on this same arbor with the J hook could be releasing the train to soon. This short lever has an L shaped tip near the front of the movement. After the J hook drops at the hour there should be about 1/8" free space between this wire and the count hook wire. This space allows the curved catch wire to get into place before the warning pin is released.

It's best to start at the bottom and work up on these movements. Bending one lever will directly or indirectly affect one or more other adjustments. So, figure out exactly where the problem is before you make any adjustment at all.

Usually, no adjustments are necessary unless there is an assembly error.
Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

.....It's best to start at the bottom and work up on these movements. Bending one lever will directly or indirectly affect one or more other adjustments. So, figure out exactly where the problem is before you make any adjustment at all.

Usually, no adjustments are necessary unless there is an assembly error.
Willie X

I agree. Make sure it goes into warning properly, releases the warning pin correctly, and the stop cam and count wheel are all properly aligned before bending anything. One thing I do is start the strike, then let the fan hit the tip of my finger to slow everything down. Then when the count lever is almost ready to fall into a slot, I stop the fan and then let it go one turn at a time. At that speed, I can actually see what is happening with the stop pin. When it's going full speed, it's so fast, I can't see anything.

 

[bangster]

Three things need to happen at once:
The maintenance lever falls into a maintenance cam notch
The count lever falls into a deep count-wheel notch.
The locking pin hits the locking lever.
Synchronizing them can be a problem.

 

[Willie X]

Hey, those are my lines! Willie

 

[bangster]

Never hurts to repeat good advice.

 

[Willie X]

Thanks Bangs. Willie

 

[shutterbug]

You can remove the nut at the corner where the fly is and lift the corner enough to move the fly pinion out of the way, and then disengage the stop wheel pinion from the next gear. Then you can turn the wheel to get the pin in the right position so it encounters the stop lever nearly exactly when the lever enters the stop cam. It might take a couple of tries. Be sure to let the springs down first.