the quest to get a mechanical 400 day to stay within a minute or so a year.

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by victor miranda, Jan 19, 2017.

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  1. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Berry,

    At some point, when I have extra money to toss in the corner and forget, I'll buy the software for my timer. Then I can track the beat closely over time and temperature, etc. Trending really depends on getting accurate and detailed data. Without it, we're just guessing in the dark.

    Derek
     
  2. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Quite correct with that Derek. I suppose I was partly hoping to promote a discussion with some one who has done just that and can furnish me better ways of thinking. Of course the industry brought in quartz regulators for accuracy - but I have retired from electronics - I want to get away from it. I don't however mind it for accessing scientific information but the quest is still for mechanical accuracy.
    Berry
     
  3. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,
    I will need to look up the meaning of chagrin (...and the spelling.)

    to remind everyone...
    things I did not know would be a problem
    -->getting a 400 day clock to run for more than 6 months on a wind-up
    -->getting a 400 day clock to avoid flutter.
    -->logging the performance of said clock or clocks in this thread.

    I did expect to have a level of consistency from the clocks
    while they ran.

    for the 6 months from Feb to late July,
    I have not logged any times.
    VBBC has kept pretty good time and I have let it run
    and I did correct it for the time shift.
    over the course of about three months it stayed within 2 minutes.

    Berry and I have discussed some considerations in e-mails.
    he does a far better job of noting regulation shifts and temperatures.
    In reading his data, I have decided that the Schatz 5 bobbin pendulum
    itself is the cause of a drift from accuracy.
    As the temperature shifts, the expansion and contraction affect
    the inner tensions of the various parts and adjusts regulation aside from temperature by itself.

    Clyde stopped and was fully rewound minus 2 clicks this week.
    VBBC stopped and was fully rewound minus 2 clicks three weeks ago.
    all three are currently running.

    Bonnie is still running and I am waiting for
    her to run down to a stop. Part of testing how to get a schatz 400 to go a year...

    I am going to set myself the task of logging times at least once a week
    I'll hunt solution for temperature logging.
    the battery for the logger might be its problem.

    If I can get vbbc to repeat the 2 mins over three months
    that is 12 minutes over a year. that is far better consistency
    than any other 400 day I own.

    I'll get to cutting more invar for the new pendulum real soon.
    I hope...

    victor
     
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  4. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor has the choice in words however you spell it. If I wasn't so daft already this exercise could drive me nuts. Lets be grateful then that he is OK! :<))

    There's an uncanny feel for the finer goings on within these clocks that comes from Victor. There's no (little) doubt in my mind that flutter is an issue but it can be overcome by careful setting up along the lines indicated and published here by John Hubby. Thanks for that sir that over & over.

    However, I think it would be fair to say that there are combinations of small influences that together militate against consistency. These are certainly temperature but other weather issues can have a small influence. I’ve even wondered about the gravitational effects of the moon. Or do I mean magnetic effects? Perhaps both………!!

    The density of the air for example has more chance to influence these relatively heavy bob type pendulums. I can certainly attest to this much:- The tiniest change in the bob weight will influence the timekeeping when your 400 day is close to regulation. We are talking of tiny fractions of a gram. The rating nut is not only too coarse – it cannot overcome these very fine needs. It is a very coarse adjustment at the point of correct regulation. Thinking that I might “tune” that last little inaccuracy has seen me set it slightly fast and bring it back by adding small weights to the bobs. I started with 4 tiny balls of blue-tak. Too much now runs slow. Reduce to two even smaller balls of blue-tak on opposite bobs (thus to keep the balance. Still now too slow. Remove what are now the teeny-weeny weights; clock runs fast again!! So don’t just worry about your torsion spring. This is a built in difficulty. Knowing this makes one look again at the whole pendulum construction. Pretty inadequate for accuracy. Someone now tell me – would a disc be better. One with some small pockets to add lead-shot for setting the rate? Other plans/ideas?

    Well Victor has. The pendulum made of temperature consistent alloy Ingar. That now compliments the suspension spring – if it’s a Horlovar. Yeah but what about the brass and the mainspring and other metals involved? Don’t they react to temperature in any way that would affect seconds per month? I’ll bet they do.

    This experience tells me that a disc would probably be a better choice than bobs if accuracy was the only consideration. The fact is though that it isn’t! A big part of the fascination comes from the visible motion and the promise of anniversary winding of the mechanical drive. If you insist on both these parameters then go quartz with a torsion suspension bob purely for show.

    With the mechanicals, I can get accuracy of 2 mins/month. 1 min per month eludes me. I also wonder if too much pure luck attaches to the art of accuracy with these torsion clocks? What about next month with these same adjustments? Nope! It must be “the weather.”

    My latest bid for rating accuracy is to wind (6 clicks) every month from a standing wind of two thirds In my clocks (I have 4 pure mechanicals on test). That is usually 70 clicks to a full wind. So set at (say) 50 clicks from start and then 6 clicks on the 1st of every month thereafter. Why can’t you? Just do it!

    With the help I have received from this Forum (you know who you are –) Must I remind you of who you are? Oh dear it gets worse! With that help all my mechanicals stay running. That is no longer an issue. I actually believe – without concrete evidence, that despite the method, flutter is always waiting in the wings to make a cameo appearance. “Hey you there – remember me – I’m famous!” He/she is inspired by their need to remain famous in a notorious way. Any excuse for an appearance will do. Changes in the weather are excuse enough! Never mind a little dust.

    And so there are many more reasons why these cheaper torsions won’t keep time than there are for doing so. Yes and I have not yet mentioned wear & tear. Be content with the fascinating dance of the pendulum and bobs. Marvel at the verge and pallets mechanism you see through the glass cover and enjoy its slow deliberate release. Now both listen and look at the precise escape(s) and check the over-swing is long enough and equal at each end. I did not say adjust them. You have already done that. Just check them. Enjoy them. Let that clock know that you are there watching and interested. I promise that will make a difference. Even if you're ugly.

    Check the steps of the minute hand and wonder does that mainspring feel all tensed up inside its drum. Are you not a little like that? When you wind it every month now to give it six clicks – spare the moment it takes to correct the time just as you would do with your daily wound mechanical alarm clock. You haven’t? Well get one and find that lost excuse to be late for work once in a while because you ”forgot” to wind it! Learn how to live the life I lead myself. The cheating; the lying; the subterfuge; the delusion.

    One more issue worth repeating. These clocks need to be clean, polished and only arguably, lubricated. By the time you have completed the setting up and the rating adjustments a year will have passed much of which without the cover. So you will need to clean it again!! It won’t regulate unless you do so. Everyone will tell you that much.

    Finally, write to Victor. Encourage him to spell “chagrin” and any other word he feels the urge to use. After all it was Victor who gave me my best clock to date. It’s the jewel in my collection as it’s the only 400 day that has any!

    Rgds,
    BerryG
     
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  5. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,

    some news
    now that it is done, it seems like not much.
    I have finished another pendulum made of invar.

    a photo taken as part of some testing
    mk-2-invar pndlm-test.jpg

    I ended up taking off a pair of sides.

    it was and still is a little off balance.
    I have filed at it and it is more in balance and I didn't want to
    have to add weight if I could avoid that.

    my timing was at 12.05 seconds per cycle over three minutes.
    I expect about 1/2 minute per day clock reading slow.

    this pendulum has been predictable in relation to my handling.
    when I have taken a file to it, I have changed the center of balance.
    the regulation didn't shift enough for me to be certain.
    the important part that the pendulum didn't give me un-expected results.

    here is a photo of clocks bonnie and clyde.
    mk-2 invar-clyde.jpg

    clyde has the new pendulum in place.
    (the third carriage is in storage.)
    The orange thing is the temperature logger and there are three new batteries for it
    on the shelf.

    victor mk-2 invar-clyde.jpg
     
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  6. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor
    Great post; great pictures; great effort.
    Good morning from UK
    Everything seems easier once done. How about that home decorating thing I used to do? It all seemed so disruptive so difficult - but once done the pain subsides and the horrible patches disappear...…..into the background.
    Your Invar pendulum is a great effort - a fine piece of endeavour. You are to be commended - not condemned eh?!

    I understand your concerns about balance. A procedure is needed. The same for the rating adjustment. I have indicated that the weight is definitely very critical to the precise beat time. But how to apply the adjustments?

    Your shelf is very attractive. I need more solid shelving. It will come. Meantime I have clocks & watches coming at me from all angles. I'm probably too cheap! Well you can't charge relatives can you? Bracelet work is in the ascendancy - Straps & pins - ah but I digress.

    I guess, (suppose is what I'm supposed to suppose), your very first concern for the Invar is to assess if it is any more stable. You don't need a real-time check for that do you. Just a measure. I get that.

    Well done Victor (buzz in background) you have impressed me.
    Best regards
    BerryG
    P.S. The buzz! You want to know more about the buzz? OK but how long have you got - and this is your post! If you look on the Electric Clock posts you'll find out about my buzz. Inside tip: It's more of a wwwhhiirrrrreee!
     
  7. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,
    yesterday clyde went from ... lets call it on time...
    to 2 minutes fast sometime over three hours from 2:30 ish to 6pm
    so the clock has a flutter.

    after an evening and most of today trying to get the flutter banished
    I have given up on this clock.
    it seems like it has lost power or does not have enough to drive the new pendulum.

    I have another mademoiselle I can use. I'll move clyde's face and hands over to it.
    (in a vengeful thought, I am considering gutting clyde and jamming in a quartz battery clock)
    well

    that old barnstormer was about all clapped out anyway.

    siiiiiiigh.
    victor
     
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  8. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    went over to honest abe's used barnstormers to look over the selection.
    of course Abe had a special price for me on a pt-19...
    You want a big plane!
    A mail-wing is too small.

    I used the old paint job, looks just like the old jenny.
    no one will notice the difference.

    Forumers
    I moved Clyde's face and the pendulum with suspension spring
    over to a mariner (I think that is what it is called...)
    and found some skinny hands.
    so clyde mkII is now the test rig.
    I got the mariner/Clyde mkII off e-bay.
    I looked it over and I have not done anything special to it.
    I used it to test my invar pendulum as I tried to get it to weight and time.
    it ran.
    a 4 minute timed run got me 4:00.10 I am expecting less than a minute slow per day.
    I took a photo.
    Clyde-mk2.jpg

    I could not quite get myself to remove the face from the ...ahem... other mademoiselle.
    (not Bonnie)
    and I decided to take a photo of dead clyde with the other mademoiselle.
    lucinda-dead-clyde.jpg

    View attachment 490958
     
  9. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor - I am truly moved. First by your defeat but then by your astounding ability to bounce back. It is to be commended and you must not give up. To say that I don't understand would be an understatement. These are very strange clocks indeed. It will not surprise you to learn that my month with "VICTIM" is going to end up disappointing. The only thing of late that is positive is that I have information on the remontoire which you must read. It was given to me by another NAWCC member called Peter Burn. I will send you the link in a private email in which I will permit myself a few tears on your behalf.
    Best regards, BerryG
     
  10. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,

    I have some other clocks I am testing as part of this to gain an understanding of what causes the 400 day clocks I have to
    wander off accuracy.

    first is clyde ( the clyde mark 2 or as my charming wife calls him clyde 2 point oh...)
    the old one is dead clyde.
    Clyde has taken about 4 days to settle and is losing about 20-ish seconds per day
    and my hand held mark I eyeball and tired thumb timed for 10 minute and
    got 10:00.21 elapsed time using a reflection off the pendulum.
    the clock overall time is also consistent with this timing.

    this is about the end of my ability to regulate using a stopwatch.
    so I added a pair of small tabs to the pendulum and will await the clock's daily
    results for further regulation.

    the other thing I am trying is to lock the bobbins on a schatz 5 bobbin pendulum.
    I left the bottom plate off and put washers under the bobbins when screwed tight
    the bobbins won't move and then I backed the adjuster nut off the bobbins.

    I want to get a pendulum that does regulate with temperature.

    that way... should the invar not get accuracy....
    we will explore isochronocity and what horolovar suspension springs may do.
    and perhaps create a weight driven or remontoire system to see what that will get us.

    looks like we have a barnstormer!

    victor
     
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  11. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    now is we can get a pilot who can fly...

    I took the tabs off and removed a little weight....
    :-I

    victor
     
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  12. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Keep going Victor. There must be a better way.
    I have the sensor for my pendulum rotation counter. When perfected it will sense every rotation and clock an electronic counter. I know how many per hour - per day - per week - per month - per year I need. I want to shorten the testing time.
    You have used a stop watch - but for quite a short while n'est pas?
    Is it worth me developing this?
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  13. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    hi Berry,
    a photo once you get it up and going is what I'd like.
    I am curious about how you trip the timing off the pendulum.

    I was thinking of timing off the escape clicks.
    ... 'course that would involve creating a computer-sound-microphone thing.

    I thought an interrupted led and photo diode would be easier....
    I just could not see a way to track one swing as opposed to the bobbins.

    I am looking to get clyde settled in. so far I have pretty steady.
    I seem to have overshot my mark and the clock is about 20 seconds fast.
    so maybe I'll add a dot of superglue to the side I think light.
    (I am outta gum...)

    victor
     
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  14. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor.

    Just for a moment there I forgot that you are an electronical savvy bloke! :<)) I'll have to shape up and ship out! "Like to know how you're gonna do it?"
    "So would I" is the answer to that one. I was thinking of a white mark on one bob. A paint stripe or this piece of white paper. It can't rotate past 360deg. Ah but they don't now with John Hubby's set up.
    The sensor shines infra-red (LED) and catches the reflection. I have to set a threshold to ignore the lower levels. I hope the device {more info will follow I promise}, has a built in Schmidt trigger it to avoid any edge bounce.
    I see a problem of front & back edges and I will either clip it off or it will count twice. In a way that doesn't matter so long as it is reliable and I account for it.
    The idea is - shoulda said this first & yes I could cut & paste - to compare the rotations with the clockwork. Any skips ahead in the clockwork driven dial are probably flutter - yeah? Any losses of registered time on the dial are ……. are...……. ? …? What? Missed escapes? You see I'm only part bright. Most of me is idiot!
    Be quiet! Say nothing. I resemble that remark!
    I have to know where & why these odd gains & losses come from? Why there is this inconsistency. I now accept the drive tension plays a part. I also accept that any lack of smoothness in the drive might precipitate flutter?
    I need to avoid the spurious. Hence optical pick-up. I also thought of a microphone (well maybe you did actually), on the escape to trigger my counter but people come by and they crash & bang! Yeah and they wanna talk to my clocks!
    I know that I am moving slowly. More so than I wanted to. It might be a little while before I can build the necessary breadboard and fit it. There are a million distractions here at the moment. I take things on. Things I can't quite do are a speciality of mine!
    Listen! It's about this battery valve radio repair. It's from the 1950's and ...……………………:<))
    Best regards - keep the faith - BerryG
     
  15. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Forumers,
    I have been a little frustrated this past week.
    my clocks have done some self adjusting sorta gaining a minute-ish
    over a couple of days. and I got kinda pissy and did not record anything.
    If I had a way to keep me from doing stupid things,
    I'd be a more successful person in this life...

    I am trying to sort out why.
    I went looking for at least some explanation.

    all the usual suspects...
    I am pretty sure it was not temperature because
    it is not shifting all that much.
    It could be my handling the clocks...
    but I didn't handle them any different as far as I know.
    so that leaves atmospherics like pressure and relative humidity.

    and I suppose spring/winding state.

    I can test if power to the clock does make a noticeable difference.
    I am rigging up yet another mademoiselle to be weight driven....
    I will run it for a few days with about 10 oz driving it
    and a similar time frame with about 15 oz driving it.

    In the picture you will see a weight it is 9 oz and the clock just runs.
    wd-mmse.jpg
    and the second photo shows the reel for the string.
    wd-mmse-reel.jpg
    as pictured it will run for about 3 weeks
    at least I will know if my thinking that power will not make a regulation difference.

    details on this clock.
    it is a frankenstein clock. I used wheels from two other clocks.
    and I tightened the plate pivots by hammering ball bearings against the plates.
    the part I find amusing is that this clock is pretty free wheeling.

    I have plans to get this weight system to fit inside the dome.
    or to drill a hole and let it fall 52 inches for a year of running.

    victor




    victor
     
  16. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Wow Victor this could be genius in the making! Excellent post sir!
    "Hammering ball bearings etc" - you mean to shrink the pivot hole?
    By free-wheeling do you mean no escapement yet?
    I badly want to know how this pans out so I do.

    My 6 ratchet wind to "Victim" on 1st Sunday in month (all my clocks are Sunday morning winds - except the daily's and the Quartz items of course) seemed to completely upset him.
    I might have been wrong to do so - but I have had to re-rate him over this week to get near the 2 secs/day ball-park allowance and then some. What did I do? What did I say? It can only be the spring tension IMHO. So I am watching this space just to see. You will have some answers from this. So well done and all power to you!
    Rgds, Berry
     
  17. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    I was told never to shrink pivots on a display clock like a 400 day
    using this method. one ball on one side and one ball on the other.
    and hammer away. the pinch usually is even. Use a taper to flatten
    the inside of the plate and form the oil cup.
    If you don't miss in your hammering it looks ok.

    .... since I didn't care as this clock is a difficult restoration...
    and I thought I'd save time from making bushings. I wacked it.

    the clock has been going for most of a day and the bob rotates about 200-220 degrees.

    I will put a face on her and start the test.
    perhaps I should attempt to get the regulation close and then start.
    in another day I will have 5 schatz 53 type clocks going in my basement.
    I can hope I'll learn something.

    I know you have been testing a 6 click wind per month strategy.
    what is your impression of your results so far?

    victor
     
  18. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #318 Berry Greene, Sep 11, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2018
    Hi Victor
    Yes thank you for the explanation. I understand completely.
    You are throwing a lot of energy & weight at the project now.
    Unfortunately I am under the cosh a bit at present so I have to slow down somewhat..
    In any case I am awaiting the full results of the 6 click strategy.
    As reported in my previous post the 6 click winding seemed to upset all my trial clocks.
    No matter how gently the wind was undertaken it has taken me a week to get Haller & Victim running close again. Not what I wanted. So disappointment at the present.
    The other two just don't count here. I refuse to even refer to them by name! They are just stupid!
    I am re-hashing my situation particularly my clock room & displays. This might improve the lot of the stupid variety although to be honest I just don't get them two idiots!
    The early conclusion is that the drive is very flaky and variable. It DOES affect the going rate and John Harrison invented the remontoire to overcome precisely that.
    I have already mentioned the pendulum weight. My word is that an influence. Tiny fractions of a gram make all the difference. That tells me that variations in gravity will do the same. What do we know about that then? Quakes etc.? Sub terranum rumbles. See here:
    Earthquakes warnings could be made minutes sooner by measuring shifts in GRAVITY | Daily Mail Online
    More in due course.
    Berry
     
  19. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,
    at times I need to remind myself my goal
    was to see if I can get an ordinary 400 day clock to within a minute a year.

    at this point in my knowledge
    I am wanting an answer to this... problem?

    I set up a weight driven clock
    it was running yesterday and I noted that the pendulum swings through to about
    200 degrees. I have to tell you I am guessing this. it is more than 180 and far less than 270.
    and I think I can tell about half way between those 180 and 270
    if the 200 degrees is taken as an accurate report for yesterday
    today the pendulum is swinging further lets say 220 degrees.
    how did that happen?

    the whole point of doing a weight driven clock was to deliver even power.
    now I can think that the clock is not a high precision gear train
    Now we have a reason to understand why some times these clocks stall.
    ... well have a clue about where to look.

    I am going to let the clock go to about 9 my time and then add
    the extra 5 oz weight and see it we get even more swing.
    and what, if any, regulation shift comes with that change of driving power.

    victor
     
  20. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor that is very interesting. I have been awaiting the early outcome of your latest endeavours. Well done sir!
    .
    To measure the rotation you can make a protractor. I did have one but I don't need it now. I just move my head to line up my eye with the edge of a bob reversal and a fixed point. I then sight that bob until it reaches the other reversal (half cycle or beat) and make a mental note of where that is. Now I look for the bob nearest to my datum. Is it more or less than a quadrant (90deg). A bit of practice sees you near enough. I have to make a note. I can no longer trust my memory for things like this. I also watch it several times. In other words I do it the same way as you!
    BTW - I check the overswing in a similar way. Listen for the escape tic as you sight a bob. You can see how far over it goes at each end of the arc.

    The rotation change you mention is almost like the pendulum "getting into its stride" Like pushing a kid on a swing. Time it right and for the same impulse the swing goes on increasing slightly. You have it in good beat and the overswing gets greater. Of course you have set & checked the beat is even. Yes I too have noticed that it can take ages to settle. Hours, maybe days! What about the air pressure, temperature and humidity? Gravity or any tremors in the house walls? Gotta affect it.

    I've been trying to think about all this. I'll stick my neck out and wait for others to chop my head off. What do I actually know? I do know that John Hsrrison the English chronometer maker in pursuit of an accurate maritime device to simplify Longitude navigation, came to at least two big conclusions (That I know of).
    The drive must be kept even - hence remontoire, and there is more accuracy in smaller pieces that have a fast escape speeds. Cycles/sec

    Now just think a mo. The quartz crystal is known for its accuracy. I first came across them in stabilising radio frequencies in the Mhz. The quartz oscillator. What is the frequency for a watch/clock? Generally 32Khz (if memory serves). I have an older quartz clock here with a 7kHz crystal (but I cannot find it to check!).
    My conclusion is that fast & light is better for time stability. Mechanical watches (Omega Speedmaster) flew out into space and withstood it all - so I don't think gravity has any influence on a balance wheel. It must have to do with impetus & inertia don't you think? Gyroscopic effects?

    So here we are a the wrong end of things for intrinsic accuracy - yeah? If we eradicate all known influences or counter them in some way - only then will we see if the quest can be fulfilled. Your efforts with the weight drive are superb. It surely MUST be a better method? Keep going Victor …… :<))
    BerryG
     
  21. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    I am trying to sort out a clock and know what symptoms are caused by what problems.

    the weight driven test is to look for what mainspring power might do for regulation.
    the usual thinking being more winds point to faster clock.

    given what happened last night I am thinking there may be some truth to the concept.
    however I am not sure the pendulum is the timing problem.
    the weight driven clock is called Minnie in my log book.
    It has gained 15 minutes over 10 hours.
    I think it is safe to say the extra power from adding 5 oz. to the 10 oz. got me a flutter.
    The odd part is the swing is much the same as yesterday.
    I did expect more degrees of swing.

    victor
     
  22. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    I do hope the forum wont reject me for what I am now going to try & say. There are folk who cannot stand the ignorance that surrounds people like me. They know and they know they know and anything less is weakness. You see I want to talk again about resonance. What I do recall on the subject is rusty but I'll pitch in anyway. I think it might come as a surprise at first to recognise that all structures have several resonances. We can start with the glass vase that shatters when the singer holds a note. Any note? A particular note? Is there more than one note? Are they related? Is there more than one resonance?

    Our torsion pendulum has several resonances I know about and possibly more than that. There is our "main" resonance given by the elasticity of the suspension wire and the weight of the structure it suspends. Oh yes and the disposition of that weight. There's another much faster resonance above the fork.

    There's the up & down resonance or stretch along the whole length of the wire, and the rocking resonance of the bobs. In fact resonances are all over the place. It needs to be said I think that at these resonances a small source of energy delivered at the sympathetic period can produce large oscillations. (Buildings, bridges, & earthquake theory are a very good example).

    These are the issues that worry me most about our torsion clocks. Probably because my understanding of the practicalities is so meagre. Towering in importance above those that do or could exist is the phenomenon we call
    "flutter" that concerns us most. We need to adjust that fork height very critically to reduce the probability of flutter. I want to discuss it further but I need your forbearance in my use of language.

    Above the fork a short spring with at least two resonances - yes? The stretch and the twist. Are they one & the same? I don't know. I don't think so but...... However what we see is the torsion resonance releasing the escape which has the ability to respond at the necessary speed to promote its continuation. A mechanical oscillator Yeah? If the mechanism could not respond in the necessary time I don't think flutter could occur.

    Therefore I reasoned that it needs to be slugged but not in a way that wastes energy. Remember my sail or air governor attached to the fork? it is speed dependent. Doing more work moving air when the rate goes up. It's very nearly what we need I think.

    So could the train also be too free here. Could the energy pressure (spring or weight) be too great? We need exactly the correct resistance and the right steady drive. That's why a mainspring is very suspect. It doesn't deliver a steady force and worse still it can bind and then release weaker then or stronger than normal amounts of energy to the train. Not smooth. For my money I would say the quest will never be fulfilled while a mainspring is the only source of drive. {Note the word "only" and then ponder on that.

    The next great point then is the consistency of the drive train friction. We clean things. We polish pivots. We check for clearances, eccentricities, and some apply oil, some don't. It all has me wondering. Do we need jewelled pivots?

    If this were electronics it would be so easy. Think regulated power supply where any increase in voltage causes a downward adjustment and vice-versa. Someone has to tell me what is the mechanical equivalent of that please? Remember Watt's governor?
    330px-Ashton_Frost_engine_governor.jpg Go on tell me it's too big...….. ahem!

    So what's a refined easy way to do this in our quest clocks? I await genius! I have waited too long! Speak to me!

    Have fun. ATB Berry
     
  23. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    hi Berry,

    I like the guv'ner.

    one of the reasons I didn't start by trying a weight driven clock
    is that the pendulum seems to be pretty isochronous relative to power delivered.

    it looks like more power gets more swing.
    so as long as the mainspring is delivering enough to run the clock,
    the time should be good or close.

    what I expected was a quick little demonstration that my problems are not from the mainspring.

    my understanding about springs mostly comes in the form of automotive coils and leaf springs.
    what I do not see here is that there is much I can do with the springs.

    I am beginning to think that relative humidity is the real trick with these clocks

    victor
     
  24. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor I was hoping to find a pronouncement here in this Forum or at least a wider discussion on this. I've been looking, reading, learning.

    For years I thought exactly as you say:. "More power, equals more Swing/Rotation, but greater speed - therefore period the same. I actually thought this is the real secret of mechanical escapement and why it works. Yes and to a point it is. However, as one looks further into this, and covering ground that has been researched by others far more clever than I and historically with a deal less refined equipment too, I am now minded to inject a caveat to that theory.

    My practical experience alone just does not support it. I have all kinds of (mechanical) clocks here now. From 30 hr reserve through the 8 day and 30 day variety not to mention the 400 day torsions and they nearly all exhibit a slowing down at the end of the wind. Consequently a speeding up at the full wind. Yes, you can compromise and say "use 85% of the main-spring capacity." Work out the half winds on the key, or even the clicks if you will and that effect will be minimised. You then wind your 8 day every 7 days. Your 30hr every 24 hrs. You can adjust to average the error so that the overall gains & losses cancel by re-winding time. I'd settle for that over a day or a week. Ahh but the quest is for a year! How much deviation is OK?

    This seems to apply for pendulums & balance wheels driven by a mainspring. But my how that changes when a weight is providing the drive. Now I will admit that watches seem a lot better in this respect. The Hermle balance is tighter too. Yet a watch that is worn on the wrist, or even carried in the pocket, is subject to changes of orientation and we know this can make a huge difference to the performance too.

    I cannot see a great deal of difference in principle between the Hermle balance and the torsion pendulum - except in size & weight of course. What we all know - instinctively one might say - is that the torsion clock won't like any travel. Any vibration, any breezes, changes of temperature, let alone humidity that you now mention. It is a surprise to find these clocks ever work at all let alone keep accurate time. Yet they do. Surprisingly well they do.

    This leaves me to consider issues of size & weight in addition to materials & temperature, and all those other issues. We might by now be thinking (from a mechanical accuracy point of view anyway), that small is good. Yet do we find other issues to consider. A short arc will bring better accuracy to a pendulum.

    I have extracted this from Wikipedia: Escapement - Wikipedia
    Escapements play a big part in accuracy as well. The precise point in the pendulum's travel at which impulse is supplied will determine how closely to time the pendulum will swing. Ideally, the impulse should be evenly distributed on either side of the lowest point of the pendulum's swing. This is called "being in beat." This is because pushing a pendulum when it's moving towards mid-swing makes it gain, whereas pushing it while it's moving away from mid-swing makes it lose. If the impulse is evenly distributed then it gives energy to the pendulum without changing the time of its swing.

    Contrary to popular opinion, the time taken for a pendulum swing does depend slightly on the size of the swing (see Pendulum). If the amplitude changes from 4° to 3°, the period of the pendulum will decrease by about 0.013 percent, which translates into a gain of about 12 seconds per day. This is caused by the restoring force on the pendulum being circular not linear; thus, the period of the pendulum is only approximately linear in the regime of the small angle approximation. To be time independent, the path must be cycloidal. To minimize the effect with amplitude, pendulum swings are kept as small as possible.

    It is important to note that as a rule, whatever the method of impulse the action of the escapement should have the smallest effect on the oscillator which can be achieved, whether a pendulum or the balance in a watch. This effect, which all escapements have to a larger or smaller degree is known as the escapement error.

    BALANCE WHEEL & SPRING Again an extract from Wikki:
    Most modern mechanical watches have a working frequency of 3 to 4 Hz (3 - 4 cycles, or 6 - 8 beats per second, 21,600 - 28,800 beats per hour or bph). Faster or slower speeds are used in some watches (33,600 bph or 19,800 bph). The beats per minute depend on the balance spring's stiffness (spring constant); to keep time, the stiffness should not vary with temperature. Consequently, balance springs use sophisticated alloys; in this area, watchmaking is still advancing. As with the pendulum, the escapement must provide a small kick each cycle to keep the balance wheel oscillating. Also, the same lubrication problem occurs over time; the watch will lose accuracy (typically it will speed up) when the escapement lubrication starts failing.

    THE PENDULUM
    The most accurate commercially produced mechanical clock was the electromechanical Shortt-Synchronome free pendulum clock invented by W. H. Shortt in 1921, which had an uncertainty of about 1 second per year.[28][29] The most accurate mechanical clock to date is probably the electromechanical Littlemore Clock, built by noted archaeologist E. T. Hall in the 1990s. In Hall's paper,[30] he reports an uncertainty of 3 parts in 109 measured over 100 days (an uncertainty of about 0.02 seconds over that period). Both of these clocks are electromechanical clocks: they use a pendulum as the timekeeping element, but electrical power rather than a mechanical gear train to supply energy to the pendulum.

    MORE EVIDENCE OF THE NEED FOR A CONSTANT IMPULSE (From same Wiki)
    Based on patents initially submitted by Rolex on behalf of inventor Nicolas Déhon, the constant escapement was developed by Girard-Perregaux as working prototypes in 2008 (Nicolas Déhon was then head of Girard-Perregaux R&D department) and in watches by 2013.

    The key component of this escapement is a silicon buckled-blade which stores elastic energy. This blade is flexed to a point close to its unstable state, and is released with a snap each swing of the balance wheel to give the wheel an impulse, after which it is cocked again by the wheeltrain. The advantage claimed is that since the blade imparts the same amount of energy to the wheel each release, the balance wheel is isolated from variations in impulse force due to the wheeltrain and mainspring which cause inaccuracies in conventional escapements.

    So these are the points that now influence my thoughts. Perhaps some modification to the impulse generation is also in order for THE QUEST? Perhaps you will argue that these reported operations do not apply to a torsion pendulum at all? We will need to know.
    BerryG
     
  25. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    mmmm long post.

    at least one person in this long thread said anniversary clocks are crazy.

    a torsion pendulum is a rather different beast from a swinging pendulum
    and is also different from a balance wheel.
    so lets call them torsion, swing and balance.

    I can state torsion clocks have more issues for regulation than power delivered
    so far in a weight driven test, either temp or other atmospherics or rigging has affected
    regulation more than power.

    what I have is rather flawed tests but they are not pointing at power as a leading cause
    of lack of acuracy.
    in that we can look at the total arc of a torsion bob and easily assume
    that is a linear function of the power delivered to the escape wheel.
    more arc== more power.

    if the weight driven clock is to by used so far...
    it is currently swing more arc with the 15 oz weight as we should expect
    however, the clock is not gaining more time over the 10 oz weight.

    while I had assumed that temperature is a big factor in accuracy,
    there is little doubt temperature compensation by itself is not a complete fix.
    lets get the major factors identified and tested.

    I can see a minute of change over a couple of days
    temp is a factor... but not tightly tied.
    and if power is involved it is not enough to be seen over a week.

    If I had an easy way, I'd seal a clock with a big bag of silica gel.
    see if things settle down.

    victor
     
  26. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor
    Just as long as we keep trying things will emerge. It's a fantastic project and idea and I have learned so much already because of it. The spin-offs are amazing because these clocks do things other clocks only dream about! I do wonder if they have more female than male hormones because they dance so well. Yeah that's the upside. The downside is their moods! I'm in danger of censorship here! Gotta be careful and no offence meant - only light-hearted humour.
    If you proceed as you are I think some more definite answers will emerge. It will probably mean that some attention has to be paid to all the variables.

    I would like to ask you where the line is to be drawn wrt modified operation. What I mean is that while the mechanical pendulum has to be retained as the timing element, what about the verge? Would an electrical impulse improve the impulse quality? (I mean precision and energy release). Maybe I am racing ahead too much but at some point that is a possible refinement to consider.

    So as I say to my whirling ladies as I pass by in admiration: "Carry on dancing!"
    BerryG
     
  27. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    I have not got much to report directly.
    about clyde:
    after having done 20-30 seconds fast the first day... or my not setting with the accuracy I had thought...
    Clyde stayed well under a minute fast for the next 9 ish days
    after about 10 days of staying under a minute fast
    he got to just over a minute fast and I had decided to adjust him.
    I did a timed run of 10 minutes and got 9.59.50
    that translates to about 72 seconds per day.
    I was puzzled because the clock has not been that far off.
    and over the next three days he has gained another 2 minutes.
    ... the recent gain of a minute a day does indicate my timed run has some validity.
    please keep in mind that I have not touched the clock during any of this.

    the temperature recorder I will dump soon. I doubt it lost much more than 5 degrees.
    the relative humidity is way up and a big storm passed by.

    Temperature may be a factor for these clocks. the invar should eliminate that.
    While winding state may be a factor...
    the faster just noted is the wrong way for a clock with a mainspring to self adjust.

    about the weight driven clock...
    it is clear that it will not run on 10 oz vs. 15 oz

    I'll try again with something like 12 oz and 15 oz
    and I'll run the 15 oz part first.

    I have to add a winding ratchet to the string drum.
    I may also grab an escape and verge from another clock.
    to avoid the skipping at higher weight.

    if you want some numbers to attend....
    10 oz run. format is clock time then the time my stopwatch says.
    start sept 8 8:26 swt 7:26 pm
    sept 9 10:32 swt 9:34.30 pm
    sept 10 12:49 swt 11:52.30 pm
    sept 11 2:55 swt 1:56.35 pm afternoon
    added the extra 5 oz in here.
    after some failures to run and tinkering with verge height
    started on sept 14 9:45 ...(swt 8:45)
    sept 15 8:16 swt 7:16.40
    no record on sept 16 (I have a memory of looking at it in the early afternoon and it being 4 minutes fast.)
    sept 17 10:30 swt 9:16.40
    sept 18 7:49 awt 6:29.50

    you can make a case that extra drive power makes a clock go faster from that data.

    I know I would not conclude anything except that was a failed trial.

    victor
     
  28. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Reading your post Victor - it needs further study.
    However, I am minded to say that you get exactly the same sort of thing that I am getting. A stable tight to time period for several days - sometimes up to 2 weeks - then without ,much rational explanation you start to see gains. You look for change that might do this and maybe blame the weather as in temperature & humidity. You wonder about the air pressure and even the moon phase and there's nothing of sense to account for it EXCEPT the drive (as in mainspring). Hence you alter that to be a weight of much more constant drive.
    AND STILL IT DOES IT!
    That's how I read your results this time.
    Have you any idea what power the mainspring was delivering before you changed over to a weight I mean? Did I miss something here? A hanging spring balance might help to establish at least the ball-park figure. I do realise that it is changes of power that might precipitate flutter. Vibration too. These clocks are very sensitive to vibration. They need to be excellently sited.
    I feel disappointed on your behalf.

    May I ask...…. if the verge is removed - what is the minimum weight needed to turn the gear train? Slowly but evenly?
    My own test is going the same way. Very stable then sudden gains. Victim is currently +30secs from 4th Sept. (18 days).
    Haller is +90secs since 2nd Sept (20 days) and is already beyond the minute/month. If he fell back now it would still fail to have been isochronous.
    Very busy around here and I will be away for a few days at end of month. It will affect my winding regime. I may have to bring it forward a few days or just leave it until I return. I can't make up my mind! Rgds BerryG
     
  29. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi berry,
    please study...
    my read was that we got one time for one weight
    and we got a different time for more weight
    and the clock would not run on the lower weight once returned to that first weight.

    there is a implication that 5 oz of power is more than the range the clock's mainspring delivers

    I'll see if I can get you a weight range for the clock spinning slowly without the verge.

    I have to add a ratchet to the string drive drum.... some how.
    victor
     
  30. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor - Thanks for straightening me out with that. I was tired when I read & replied last night but I am mindful of the time difference between us which slows things down in the exchanges, so I took a plunge.

    Now that outcome is just what I believed should happen! It supports the notion that the mainspring wind will definitely have a bearing on the time-keeping doesn't it? It points to the alternative that you have installed - namely a weight. You say is in the region of 5oz.

    Why would the clock stop running when the weight was reduced to a former level THAT IT HAD RUN AT? Any ideas on that one? It just has to be a change in the friction doesn't it? Something has tightened up?

    I know for many this is probably old ground - but to me it is quite fascinating. We know about roll resistance and the kick of energy needed to start a movement. In normal use those kicks are linked to the impulses because the mechanism moves in little steps does it not? Along with the escape. There is also impetus or is it inertia to consider. Tiny yes - but present.

    The train obviously needs to be perfect. Pivots, the teeth, (leaves), all in good shape.
    Another issue is the even strength of the impulses received from the pallets - yeah? Or does this actually balance out as the escape wheel turns? So long as it's enough to maintain the overswing?

    A slight aside here. The design of the pallet angles & faces in conjunction with the escape wheel profile would need to be "tuned" to impart equal impulses for your "tic" & "toc" - for want of a better description. The entry & exit pallet impulses need to match in the energy they impart. Tradition has various answers to this when considering a swinging pendulum. What about the rotating torsion type we have here? Is the overswing measurement on each side just that?

    Plenty to occupy the mind then. This will either make you sleep or keep you awake. Which it is depends how much energy you have put into it mate! It's all down to the control of energy in the end! :<))
    Best rgds, BerryG
     
  31. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry

    in the way I tend to do things...
    I got the verge and bob off the weight driven clock called minnie in my log book.
    I have 4 lumps of pewter --> 2.7, 3.1, 4.3, and 5.3 oz

    At 2.7 and at 3.1 Minnie's minute hand rolls to about 8 to 9 and stops.
    At 4.3 5.3 and 5.8 the minute hand will not start if stopped at 9.
    The clock will keep going if started at 12.
    At 7.0 and up Minnie will start reliably

    stopwatch times: weight tested and time for the hour hand to move past 12oclock 10 times.
    4.3oz 55.98sec
    5.8oz 38.77
    5.8oz 36.27 ( tested it twice...dunno why)
    7.0oz 27.28
    10.1oz 18.71
    15.4oz 12.53


    looking at those numbers give me a sense of why the clock stopped at 10 oz.
    I think from my various repair and adjustments that a mainspring delivers
    more like 12 oz after a 3/4 a turn of the winding key.
    with the tight side well past the 20oz range...(this is a bit of a guess... and feels informed
    by sounds the clock makes.)

    as for exactly why the clock would not run at 10 oz...
    it went for about an hour and a half after I started it.
    I did make sure It was a little past the arc from 15 oz ... 220 degrees...
    I gave the string a tug and restarted it as before and got the same 1.5 hour run.
    so I decided the beat was close just not quite enough shove.

    to easily add weights I'll need to cast some other shapes/sizes.
    my charming wife defends her muffin tins...
    maybe I have some big washers otherwise un-used.

    victor
     
  32. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Wow Victor you have been so active while I have stood by watching events from near & far. All I will say is I can see VICTIM is picking up speed again just as he did towards the end of last month. This flies in the face of my theoretical expectations. I have stopped looking at him so intently. I wondered if he is just an attention seeker?

    Now to "MINNIE" your own test clock. It is eccentric! (Mmm! There is so much more I could say here; it's an open goal). It sounds to me like it tightens up somewhere and I am wondering how well it would run without the motion works. Fit only the minute finger if you must.
    The figures are well worth keeping. thank you for those. You are working well. Your clock is working but not so well. It has character. Perhaps you are correct. A little extra weight to more closely mimic the mainspring at its best? Way to go next yes. In fact that thought has set me off...…….. thinking...…… oh no...…. :<))

    If there was more energy in the mechanism and the impulses were larger you could move the fork further up the suspension and thus raise the flutter resonance. The question then is, - would the extra energy exactly match the ability of the escape train to follow this? I don't know - but I feel that I wanna know.

    Have you ever knocked your working clock. Nudged it unintentionally? Did you see those heavy bobs jigging up and down while the rotation is maintained. That's the resonance in the whole length of the suspension isn't it? It's quite fast. Would it/ could it promote the onset of flutter? What does promote it. Why so spasmodic? Is this what has returned to my VICTIM & HALLER clocks that accounts for their sudden advances? Our temps are falling as Autumn is here now. The world weather has been in turmoil. I do wonder if it is the RATE of temperature change that is the key; not just the change? Comments please.
    BerryG
     
  33. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    what is to be kept in perspective is that I do not want a 'special' clock.
    I'd like an ordinary 400 day.

    what causes the lack of accuracy is of note
    and if we determine the cause how easy or hard it is to stabilize.

    from my testing to date I can see that flutter and skipping are clearly to be removed.
    this is both proper rigging and a clock in good order(tight to tolerance pivots etc.)


    oil is a problem and required. oil consumes power and has to be on the escape.
    the pivots may or may not require it, I have not decided.

    what I have _not_ seen is that power delivered to the fork
    makes a differnce in regulation.
    ... that is not to say it is not there, it just is not
    showing up in a clear cause and effect relationship.
    (It is... but extra power causing fluttering or skipping is not changing the regulation...)

    from what I can tell...
    we can't see if there is power-to-escape fluctuation. This from gears and pivots or from mainspring.
    and we do not know if or how much atmospherics is acting on the period of the bob.
    ....
    at the center of all is whether or not the arc of the bob shifts with power delivered
    and does that shift mean there is a small change to regulation.

    If the invar pendulum is to be believed to be free of temperature shift...
    it still shifts from accurate. so temperature is not a direct cause.
    The locked bobbin pendulum is in rough parallel to the invar pendulum.

    those two observations point to reliable main and suspension springs and the geartrain is not the cause.
    another possibility is local gravity... but all the other clocks should have similar shifts.
    The same atmospherics other than temperature should see similar shifts.

    ok lets go back over the cause and effects...
    we have a bob that swings 12 sec/cycle. if it does 13 sec/cycle, does the clock read as slow?

    it takes more power to swing a bigger arc. if a change to the arc causes a regulation shift....
    the above says a smaller arc takes more time to cycle.


    victor
     
  34. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor let chat to myself out loud for a while.

    My position on all this is arrived at by deduction after the events. I see it this way. Real Time clocks became necessary at two distinct junctures. Both spawn an increased interest in the subject which is principally accuracy. I refer first to our English maritime needs of navigating Longitude. Then along came the railways...….running to a time-table. The earlier church clocks were really more of an alarum to call the congregation to worship. We have not come to pretty or jewellery yet but a lot of the early clocks were indeed made very pretty. John Harrison's H1/4. Much about how best to do these things is learned and we hear the names of the pioneers over & over again.
    H1_low_250.jpg H4_low_250.jpg 800px-Harrison_H4_clockwork_1.jpg

    I think the foregoing tells us that we will need to accept that some changes to the mechanical torsion are going to be needed in order to improve accuracy. We know that we can get to 1min/mnth with care and some luck.
    I am particularly interested in three things that I feel must be changed. The flutter must be eradicated. The drive must be stable. Temperature changes must be compensated. Again then:-
    1) Substitution of the mainspring with a weight seems a priority
    2) Eradication of flutter must be achieved.
    3) Temperature compensation with a Horolovar suspension only goes part-way. The pendulum must be more solid and stable. A better way of regulating it must be found. I'm suggesting cups to add weights like lead shot to regulate and the nickel-iron alloy you are using. (Invar - is that the correct name?)
    There is a 4th area. The verge. I just wonder if the impulses can ever remain stable through changes of temp & humidity. I know isochronous accuracy is very sensitive to any change in pendulum weight. The existing adjustments are far too flimsy.
    I find myself wondering therefore about an electric verge. It cannot flutter. The impulses are more stable. There is no temperature or humidity to compensate for.

    The torsion clock seems to have been a quite late arrival on the scene. C1880. It exists in the background until the post-war boom in German clockmaking which saw the occupying European forces taking home such novelties as we are now taken with. They are built down to a price but not a rock-bottom price. That "Anniversary" wind promise is a breakthrough in marketing that has others trying to defy the patent and the copyright on that word thus comes "400 day" winds. By now decorative clocks had been joined by novelty clocks. Yes and let it be said Mr. pin pallet - not particularly accurate or reliable clocks.

    If these clocks had not been challenged by the cheaply produced quartz designs, things might have remained somewhat different. If the manufacturers such as Kone, Schatz, Kundo could have found a mechanical way to accuracy they would surely have taken it. Their solution to the accuracy problem speaks in volumes to me. They chose quartz and a decorative torsion pendulum that has no function in the marking of time. It just hangs there twirling and is given a push from time to time. Eventually even the pendulum construction is not genuine and we see that awful plastic!!

    You are way ahead down the road on at least two counts Victor. I will be playing catch-up to you for a long while. The going will be tough but you're going to prove or disprove the standard torsion arrangement. I am here to encourage and give you my ear. I hope not to annoy.

    Rgds
    BerryG
     
  35. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,
    I made a ratchet... my next one will be better.

    it works, just could be better.
    I have the clock 'minnie' running over 12 hours and I set it onto its shelf
    I'll start the timing tonight

    I put a new face on the clock.
    The clock that supplied the face also gave me a verge.
    I closed the pivots on any that gave me any looseness I could see.
    proper pivoting potentiates perfect performance...

    the weight is 14 oz.
    I am planning to add the 4.3 oz weight for the "more-power"
    part of this testing.

    victor
     
  36. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Well Victor whilst you have been busy on the Quest - I have been shirking! On the plus side I now have two slightly different optical sensors that I plan to use in a circuit to count the pendulum rotations with an electronic step counter. I'll work out what I expect over say 24 hours and see if there's any signs of discrepancy. I apologise for my go slow which will be extended as I will be travelling to Ireland this W/E for a few days; primarily to see my son. Meantime I have been guilty of another clock diversion. The details of which must go into the electric section and will do when I can develop my photos. I feel unfaithful but the rewards have lifted me!
    Your work is going to carry this project forward apace and I shall be drawing heavily on it in due course. Patience, when it comes to 400 day items, is absolutely vital! Keep on keeping on Victor - I'll pick up with you again about a week.
    Regds, BerryG
     
  37. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Forumers,

    things that are afoot with this project.
    the locked bobbin clock (Lucinda in my log book) has been running since aug 29.
    with a regulation on sept 1.
    on sept 10 I recorded this Lucinda says 12:59 and SWT of 11:52.10 (clock is 7 minutes fast)
    and on oct 2 I recorded this Lucinda says 8:07 and SWT of 7:07.10 back to correct time....

    now If anything else I can state the temps in my clock filled lair have fallen a little in that time.
    so that clock should have gained more as opposed to the loss of all the time it gained.

    I can guess the first of the month was a bit stormy and the past week or so
    have had mostly clear days.

    If the other clocks followed that in a way that I could see in the log book
    I'd be pleased...

    onward... after a fashion.

    I have also started the weight driven clock test (Minnie in my log book)
    SWT = stop watch time. I have a robic stopwatch with a clock.
    first record sept 30. minnie says 9:11 swt 8:12.20 (pm)
    (a loss of about a minute and I suspect I had started her in the early afternoon)
    Oct 1 minnie 1:24 SWT 12:32.45 AM
    oct 1 minnie 9:17 SWT 8:28.20 PM
    oct 2 minnie 7:54 swt 7:07.55 -13 min (pm)
    oct 3 minnie 1:45 SWT 1:45 PM (-16 min)

    I timed Minnie pendulum 6 minute run of 6:00.71
    or about .11 seconds fast over one minute pointing at 160 seconds of error in one day
    between 2 and 3 minutes error in one day. clock seems to have lost more however....
    arc is noted at 280-290

    and I added the 4.3 oz weight to the driving weight. with as little jostling the clock as I could.
    clock set to correct time at 2:20 pm and checked again at 2:25 which I consider the start time.

    minnie was going at the logging of the clocks...
    oct 3 minnie 12:51 SWT 11:51.55
    I didn't note it, however I did think the arc was much the same as before I added the new weight.
    I was expecting a bit more swing.

    victor
     
  38. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #338 Berry Greene, Oct 4, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
    Fascinating stuff Victor.
    I am catching up with events as I await my calling time to leave this lovely place in NI. I might not stir and be left here for ever.
    Ofttimes I wonder how are my own clocks faring? Soon enough I will know. In the meantime it is Victor's clocks that have my attentions and continue to astound me. I ask this simple question:-
    Are we nearing a conclusion which would say that more weight equals a slower rate. NOT faster as I once believed?
    If we did, that is entirely in keeping with my own observations wrt winding of the mainspring. I am almost of the opinion that this is the irrefutable case.
    If so surely a weight offers much better drive stability?

    I have a friend, an old school-friend to whom I have confided my interest and participation in "The Quest." He has a colleague who is an old retired clockmaker. I asked him to convey my interest and to ask him of his opinion vis-à-vis the 400 day torsion clock. The answer has come back and I quote:-

    Berry,
    Met up with Brian last night we all had an evening meal out in Goring. I remembered to ask him the question on anniversary 400 day clock spring regulation. (the ones with very thin flat metal springs. ) You will be pleased to know he knows all about them ( even has a book somewhere on the workings ) but advised me the regulation for time is and always has been beyond the joke. He has worked on many and there is no easy way at all they all vary. At the top of the spring here is a small pin that moves back and froth between two stops the distance between the stops depends on how far up the small pin is. Now this makes no sense to me at all. Likewise he said the spring lengths come in all sizes, its so confusing but in principle only, so clever.
    He said if you got one working and it held some sort of time you did really well. All in all. not a time piece for an amateur to even contemplate. He laughed about that
    but was impressed by your efforts on these clocks, I explained about your collection during our meal. Maybe your ears were burning! I will tell him more now when I see them again in December.
    Roy


    Here is my reply to that:-
    Roy
    Tell Brian it took me a while to figure out the torsion clocks set up and I was helped enormously by the clock enthusiasts on the NAWCC Forums. They were unstinting in their generosity & patience with me and suddenly the penny dropped and I can get them working. That's not to say keeping accurate time yet! Just to get them maintaining used to be so difficult but not now.

    Victor, that's you buddy, and many others on the Forum. John Hubby, Derek, Martin, KurtinSA. Eric, Shutterbug and many more generous & patient souls to whom I owe so much. That will remain true for all the time I am here. Thank you gents.

    So good luck Victor and remember when I get home - after winding down - Oh I am just so witty - one of my first tasks will be the electronic sensor I need to count the torsion pendulum rotations accurately over each hour, day, week...…….. I want that data to be my next contribution.
    Regards, BerryG
     
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  39. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    I've been playing with a Gustav Becker for a while. The original susp spring was wider and heat treated in the center. I played with springs either side including sanding them down but it all really came down to carefully positioning to avoid that unseen wow and flutter.
     
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  40. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    WOW?

    either brain lock or ignorance
    victor
     
  41. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    my initial read of that is he blames the suspension spring mount for the problem.

    frankly, there is no reason to dismiss the thinking.

    after some thought we are back at "the clocks are flipping nuts"

    I went into the clock-cave to take a look at minnie
    she is 40 seconds slow as best I can guess. minnie says 1:40 swt 12:40.40
    and the a pendulum is at a little less than 270 degrees of arc.

    ... from adding weight...

    weeeeel it sure is entertaining...

    I am going to ponder this result.
    who knows what the next couple of days will bring.

    victor
     
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  42. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    The flutter was not there whenever I sat watching and it really came down to almost falling off the end of the impulse pin in adjustments. A lot of people laud GB clocks but this one has an aluminium fork that refused to stay tight on the new spring plus there was too much slop in the hanging of the spring which caused a distinct lack of verticality in the hanging of the whole suspension. It was only when I asked why a GB clock would need me to make changes to it to remove what could only be faults that the problem could be repaired.
     
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  43. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Thank you for that input Roughbarked.
    Yes that is why I want to count the rotations I actually get over a known period and compare that to where the clockwork has moved. Is it ahead or behind? {Looking for flutter or missed escapes}.
    In my experience so far (which is nothing compared to some on this Forum) getting a consistent rate seems impossible. I can tune for a small loss that seems consistent; I can tune for absolute real time. That will last for some 20 days and then the gallop starts. From an accuracy of 1 or 2 seconds per day we have several minutes (4-6) of gain over a full month of 31 days. You can see that most of the gain is over the last 11 days.
    I decided it might well be the mainspring drive pressure and started a regime of monthly winding. Six ratchet clicks for most clock types I have here. Oh boy! No matter how carefully done that unsettles the clock big-time and re-regulation seems to be called for.
    A slight but maybe not so silly aside: Suppose the flutters (gains) are matched by the missed escapes (losses) - would we be deceived into thinking this is an accurate and isochronous timepiece? Would we be alone in making that assumption? I remain yours truly "perplexed" in UK :<))
    BerryG
     
  44. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    As an apprentice my master was one who took up watchmaking when he arrived in Australia. He recalls his first job was to put all the newly imported 400 day clocks in beat. I asked him when I saw this thread, were these things ever meant to be accurate? He said, No.
     
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  45. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers,
    sometime I find I am stalled by the terms people use.

    precision and accuracy are in the same ball park I suppose

    but I also take an engineer's out look on many things
    I can calculate out to many digits, and cut them off at the decimal point.
    which is what I expect I'll do here...

    the clocks that can keep to within a minute a year...
    have temperature compensation.
    average out atmospherics.

    from all I can tell and I am not claiming this is definitive,
    such clocks quite often use jewels to avoid oil.
    plain ole brass bearing on pivots is not unheard of.
    they have remontoire systems of one sort or another...
    if you consider a power holding while winding a remontoire anyway.

    From the weight driven clock(minnie) response in the testing, I have
    a new found appreciation for what a deadfall escape needs to operate in a torsion clock.
    An even source of power will help. no doubt.
    I believe the Atmos clock uses a roller escape and I think if you want to use
    a mainspring to drive a torsion clock this variety is a requirement.
    I have a jum/7 I expect to look into modifying that to a roller type...

    To get an ordinary 400 day clock to keep any sort of time...
    a shift to jeweled pallets my be a requirement just to avoid lubrication.
    anyone know of a 400 day with jeweled pallets?

    I am going to let the weight driven clock go to let the weight land on base.
    we will see if the lubrication changes the regulation.

    :-D and I will hunt a sweet spot on the rigging for clyde, now that I have
    an idea of how I have to rig all the angles for the escape and fork.

    victor
     
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  46. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    I might be drowning but I love my buoyancy in this warm water. I just wanna float (I must stop doing that!) this little idea that's rattling around in my tiny brain.
    Weight of the timing element sort of dictates its general speed and the energy within it yeah? Working back from a quartz (or indeed other crystal) suggests to me that quick and lightweight is the most accurate. We divide down and that way we also divide any error don't we?
    These heavy slow pendulums look as if they will give a solid measure of time but experience tells me differently. Twelve second period.....! Nothing in between except the half cycle. The slow heavy pens are so easily disturbed. Not so a watch movement with a tiny light balance eh?
    So we start with a rigid shelf for the installation. No ground or other shocks must reach these torsion clocks. They need stable temperature and general environmental insulation. Mmm!
    BerryG
     
  47. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    move over. I am going to float with you 'til the heat or water run out.

    Hi Berry
    you may want to time the beat of the martin bergess et all clock b...
    and oddly enough I am checking my progress against a quartz lcd stopwatch/clock/calendar ... erm... thing.

    I really am after getting a 400 day clock to regulation and holding it there.
    the things I have found are clearly the cause for missing that mark
    have proven elusive in that attempts to verify cause and effect have not displayed
    the expected results.

    so while temperature may be a factor, it is not clearly tied to the pendulum and suspension spring.
    so an invar pendulum may be the final piece of solving the puzzle and we have not
    sorted out how to get a 400 day clock to stable enough to need such a pendulum.

    if we look at oil, which is required for the steel verge and brass escape, we have the beginnings
    of variation in operation that lack explanation.
    I wonder If I can get the verge and wheel diamond coated?

    so the escape we chose may require weight driven power to narrow the arc enough
    to keep the escape and verge and fork and over-swing out of interference range.

    If you can think up an explanation for how more weight
    got less arc of the pendulum AND a change of regulation
    you may come to a conclusion different from mine,,,
    I plan to test my idea for rigging and see If I can hit a mark.

    Clyde is my intended test clock. as he has not veered back to accuracy.

    victor
     
  48. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Forumers,
    I have been sorting through my recordings and data and still have no clear cut answers
    for where I have achieved much of anything.

    so far I can state that on a schatz 5 bobbin pendulum,
    locking the four outside bobbns and backing off the adjuster will get a more consistent regulation

    I can also state that temperature doesseem to make a difference and a lot of other factors make more.
    the first factor appears to be the state of lubrication on the verge and escape wheel.
    the second factor is power delivered to the escape. this one has more to do with
    what I would call the range of proper operation.
    the pendulum swing and fork and verge can be set to pretty efficient and free swinging
    at one power level.
    That power requirement, which does seem to me less than the range of power delivered by the mainspring,
    is a regulation issue.

    so I was looking at dead clyde for the posibility of becoming a 400 day with a rolling block escape.
    or a version of that... mostly to allow a wider power range.
    I did some power testing on the mainspring to compare it to the weight driven clock
    at 4 clicks the clock Minute Hand (MH) would stop at 8.
    much the same up to 7 clicks where the clock would stop at 9:50 MH 10 and HH near 10
    at 11 clicks It just started at that same time.
    time for 10 laps of the Hour Hand was 57.46 seconds
    and fully wound was 7.50 seconds

    my conclusion is that dead clyde's mainspring is about the same range as the weight driven clock called minnie
    and that minnie's current weight is likely close to the full power of a mainspring.

    on oct 3 a weight of 4.3 oz was added to the driving weight
    I guess I should add this here
    oct 3 minnie 12:51 time 11:51.55 pm
    oct 4 minnie 10:43 time 9:43.55 pm
    oct 6 minnie 1:19 time 12:19.55 am
    oct 7 minnie 1:20 time 12:20.25 am
    oct 8 minnie 8:50 time 7:47.05 pm
    oct 9 minnie 1:27 time 12:21.30 pm

    minnie is now gaining time....
    a timed run of the pendulum is 3:59.64 or about .09 seconds a minute.
    so the clock and pendulum are consistent.
    I decided the arc is mostly unchanged from oct 7 --> 260 - 270

    in other news
    new clyde is back to being close to accurate for a day...
    having gone from 7 minutes and 15 seconds fast to 7 minutes and 5 seconds fast
    over the course of 18 hours... the mark one eyeball may be a factor
    and the pendulum timed run is 4:21.10 this consistent with the clock's reported times.
    arc is guessed at 330 a little less than the 340 guess on act 7

    for some reason I am considering how to add an oil bath to the escape wheel...

    victor


    victor
     
  49. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Wow - there's some good stuff there Victor.
    Reading it through there was one little thing that came to me. The gear train needs to have consistent friction. If a smaller weight can restart it when deliberately stalled it bodes well for consistency - yeah? It's not just the time or rate of its turning. It must have consistent friction. Worn pivots for example allow the mesh to change. They jiggle in free-run but not when moving in little jerks as the escape releases and then stalls it. The binding might increase along with the weight.
    How good is the verge at kicking (generating consistent impulses)? Why else would an increased weight reduce the arc? Longer arc - you would think...…but no you report shorter. Check? So I repeat is more weight making the mechanism bind more as loose or unpolished pivots change the friction losses? Or the increased weight increases the friction of the drum pivots?
    Look I have not got to my electronic project yet. I apologise without reservation. "Stuff" keeps on distracting me. I have not turned "Victim" around at month end nor any other torsion clock. I need to get that done too.
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  50. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi berry,
    not too sure how this post is going to come out.

    with the complete understanding that I may have miss-read or the author miss-spoke...
    I have read that torsion pendulums are isochronos for arc of swing.

    there are a couple of ways that thought may be taken...
    it does not speak to temperature or other atmospherics and it does not
    give a comparison to perfect accuracy nor to a swinging pendulum
    in comparison you can state the a swinging pendulum does change time when you change the arc of swing.

    and it could be an out and out lie.

    so far in this run of things one can try... I can't state a torsion pendulum is isochronos for any reason.
    I have seen one particular clock go for a couple of months at close to accurate.
    so I have some hope it is possible to sustain that result.

    I also do not have any idea how I did it. well I can tell you want all I did... however
    it is not really any different than other clocks... just a longer sustain in the sweet spot.
    I had noticed the clock always seemed to pick up some time after about two weeks usually
    more than 30 sec/day and less than 1 minute a day so I started it 45 sec a day slow
    it lost some and then picked up time and slowly got to on time and a 400 day clock
    a minute slow for a month and a minute fast for a month with a long time of on time
    is quite nice. it has contnued to gain time. even after a re-wind.
    so there is more to it than anticipating the power from the mainspring. ... or whatever it is
    that causes the clock to change regulation...

    there are a lot of variables here and we have not a one sorted as to cause and effect.
    things I think may change regulation. please add any that you feel are important.
    power, temp, relative humidity, air pressure, lubrication.

    power make some sense... and we think that adding power should get us more arc
    effect on regulation we are uncertain.

    temp I have not seen a pattern relative to temp. both lucinda with locked pendulum
    and clyde with invar have shifted regulation to gain and lose time.
    While they are in very rough parallel that observation points at the pendulums are not
    the temperature shift. something else is causing a temperature related shift.

    my basement is usually on the humid side most of the time.
    air pressure is what the days bring.
    here at my house it has been cloudy/rainy the past 4 or 5 days
    and clyde is not gaining time last I looked.
    so there is some data pointing to lower pressure slowing the clock.
    If I saw a similar result in the data for the other clocks I'd say we are onto something.

    and I would assume that colder temps cause the mainspring to output less power
    and I would assume that colder temps cause the pivot oil to thicken and use power
    so colder will have an affect on power to the escape
    and the change in viscosity may affect the verge and escape getting power to the pendulum.

    so an approach may be to see if we can get a sense of what change causes what shift in regulation.

    we are guessing that more arc is caused by more power.
    I would think the lower air pressure should also cause more arc from less resistance to swing.

    and then there is the weight driven minnie.
    this clock is proof it is possible to add enough power to the escape wheel
    to slow the pendulum. there can be no doubt there is a goldilocks power range.

    victor
     

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