the quest to get a mechanical 400 day to stay within a minute or so a year.

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by victor miranda, Jan 19, 2017.

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  1. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    When did you send this out? I must have missed it. Oh Victor that is most kind. However I fear that the carriage out of your good country to my own, which is only now linked to Europe by a thread, could be gastronomic! We need to work up a figure. I don't have a big Schatz. Wouldn't you know that I stayed with Oberdiah & Kizwiki, (not their real names), because their dials go clockwise. Oh you hadn't noticed had you?
    Your family sounds a lot like my own. It isn't just the clocks they don't fancy, it's the embarrassment of having a relative with motion sickness! {Did you see what I did there?}.
    Go on then tempt me. There must be some way of sailing it over!
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  2. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    #252 victor miranda, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
    I strongly recommend one of the first three.
    I have not worked any of these, they were had as 'parts' or restoration
    well all are that way...
    the center is complete and looks like it has a good amount of corrosion. like it was stored in a basement.

    I think one of the other two is what you should pick. I would send the lantern on the right, were it my pick.
    domes are tricky to ship.
    100_0487.JPG
    I will make sure you have the blocks and a fork and that bob in the picture.
    and I think I have a suspension spring wire here somewhere.

    again, the center is complete and looks like it has a good amount of corrosion.
    I think one of the other two is what you should pick. I would sent the lantern on the right, were it my pick.

    100_0488.JPG


    this pair is a LOT of work.
    think of it as a dial you like and a seek parts restoration
    the mademoiselle is gutted, I have a clock mechanism I was thinking of inserting into the mademoiselle.
    If you want the sunburst clock, will get the dome with it. frankly I'd clean the face and put it on the dome.
    I find it that face hard to read.

    I am stupid for mademoiselle clocks and got it for the dome.

    we can PM the rest of the details.
    the post office will have me filling forms for a week, however I think we can get it out.

    victor
     
  3. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #253 Berry Greene, Jan 27, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
    My email alert has failed, that's why I'm late on to things! WIN10 Mail is just such rubbish!
    I am in your hands on this. Not helpless. I can make blocks - can't make pendulum parts.
    I can get the wires if I know which one I need. I can clean & polish from plates to wheels & pivots.
    No lathe. Can't make clock bits although I have made crude repairs like they used to back in the daze.
    Have shellac through to Super-glue. Lots of chemicals - ammonia - alcohol - metal-working tools
    pith, Rodico - even varnish spray - and lots of ideas!
    However, always need luck & know-how - hands & dials to suit.
    I have drills & some machinery but no lathe.

    What I need is your private email. How do we do that? Not sure we are supposed to put stuff like that out here.
    It's not just the walls that have ears now is it? The world is one big Trumpet (Oh did you see what I did there?)
    I have only bought ebay stuff "for spares or repair." I have probably been lucky. Some of these clocks are not well kept.
    The varnish is fantastic. It gets dirty, absorbs dirt but you can clean it to a quite remarkable degree in detergent. Not sure best way to remove it and start again though. Paint stripper? Blow-lamp?
    These clocks are tricky without saying quite why. The flutter issue is evasive and perplexing. The pallet setting difficult yet simple if you know the procedure. Oh yeah the terms of reference for the quest? Are we to be restrained to original parts?

    I don't have very much doubt now that occasional flutter was the problem. Yes and like you said rated slow, but catching up with flutter. I can't believe I never saw it. Well only when working on the clock NEVER when it was running. Now I see slight variations of +/- one beat. This could just be slack back-lash in the drive.
    I also think the EW teeth are worn shorter than standard. Pallets moved in to compensate. Result I loss of impulse. Small but significant
    There must be a mechanism for private email exchange surely?

    Hey I've got to hit my check point for 10pm!! It's -18secs or three beats late. That's what I have all day - 6 -12 or -18secs That's 1, 2, or 3 beats late but consistent to that.
    Temp seemingly irrelevant.

    Thanks Victor BerryG
     
  4. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    I see that PM but I am at a complete loss how to respond to it. Dead thick I feel. How does it work?
     
  5. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    go to your account
    look on the left side for pm/conversations

    or...
    hover over the head shape. Between the "members" and the search/magnifying-glass near the top of this page...

    and look in the menu screen for pm/conversations

    I want to post about your recent graph...

    next post.
     
  6. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Berry Greene,

    I do not have any rules about how I am going to make the attempt.
    I thought I'd tune up a 400 day, and see what causes it to veer from accurate.

    I know temperature is a problem from many years of watching and regulating.
    I simply figured that the power from the spring added to the problem.

    my efforts over the past year have been in exploring
    regulation, level, flutter and machining invar.

    I thought I had a handle on the first three.
    clyde has given me quite the schooling.
    and so has Bonnie... just different classes.

    your graph.... I am going to look it over again.
    temp over a day from 21 to 15.
    the seconds I am not sure what I am seeing
    you have minus seconds and it seems steady over most of the day? at -17 sec?

    from all I have seen in regard to temp and regulation.
    there is a lot of latency it takes time for the bob to adjust for temp.
    an hour of cooler temp in a day does not have much effect.
    it takes more like a 12 hour cold soak to get a noticeable change.

    victor
     
  7. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    RE: The graph
    My temps are in deg C - not stated. It will look a lot wider in deg F which you still use which makes accuracy easier (IMHO. (59 - 70F). We have gone all European over here but are likely to be moving soon. We might be coming your way. Does it sound like a threat to be feared?

    My seconds are posting a loss on the GMT starting time. However, the scale won't stand more than +/- 40 secs. This is on the basis that I cannot make my first target for a month long accuracy of +/- 1 minute and be close to isochronous if I have in excess of +/- 25 secs / week!
    My thinking was that there is no point to raising a graph until the errors are already minimal.

    Yes I agree that temperature changes will probably show some lag before taking effect. Such is the nature of heat. I have lost another full beat overnight. (6secs). However, there's an early sign that I may get that back during the course of the day. Presumably as the day temperature rises? I am fascinated to see.

    Our heating is backed off at night and the rate and depth of decay will be governed by the weather I suppose. It won't go much below 14C very often. Of course it might not just be the wire that is causing the changes. In fact it seems that Horolovar wires are compensated alloys. The whole mechanism and its lubricants are very suspect. To help somewhat I now have some thinner watch oil - which could be a wiser choice for some of the going train pivots? Lubricant, it seems, is not all its cracked up to be! {Unintended pun there I think?}.

    Part of my latest thinking centres on whether it is possible to miss the odd beat? The EW doesn't advance and momentum of the pendulum carries the day by giving it a nudge? But is that then 2 beats? Six or 12 seconds lost forever. The opposite of flutter? The lower amount of swing can't unstick the locking pallet? That sort of event. I'd like your opinion on the likelihood of that.

    BTW - I ought to say that the mainspring lube is Moly in light oil. I have used it for a very long time for clocks. During my recent adjustments I did let it down and then I did try to wind it back to where it was. {Approx 3 months in}. I need a handle on its performance don't I?

    So far then an obvious welcome improvement.
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  8. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    I am not happy.
    my temperature recorder quit on 27oct2017.

    I have restarted it. (I hope)
    I am going to regulate the clocks and start again...

    victor
     
  9. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #259 Berry Greene, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Re: Kundo 2 Miniature 8.5"H MY FIRST "QUEST" CLOCK - There coiuld soon be a second. Watch this space!

    Attached are my first 3 days of running since the revised set-up. The LH vertical axis Y is the time deviation in seconds allowing for a small loss or gain. We are looking for < +/- 15s/week. I'm thinking that I would take the datum starting time as -15secs that is after the initial stabilisation which I don't really understand. Day 1 is the best day despite the temperature swing. Since then there has been a slight retardation drift. Perhaps already too much to hit the weekly target? {Click the pictures to enlarge}.

    There is also a scale on RH side for the ambient temperature in deg C. The zero X seconds line is also 18C. This means I can plot the temperature swings to see if there is any significant correlation. Although the time & swing were intitially set to GMT the clock soon stabilised with a displacement loss of 15 secs. Over 3 or 4 days there is a very gradual drift to a further retarded state. The swing phase appears close to correct at 0 - 6 - 12 - 18 -24 secs etc reversals.

    But is this loss small enough to make the initial 1min/month target? Only time will tell!
    I am careful with my readings but there is always room for an error. Some of the plot points show wild swings in both time & temp. All I can say is that is what I wrote down at the time of the check.

    Once I get a week of figures I will transfer them to a 4 week month chart which will smooth out the line(s) and hopefully allow us to see what is happening at a glance.
    All suggestions & criticisms are welcome.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - DAY 1 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 3 - - - - - - - - - - -
    BerryG Kundo 2 graph Day 1.jpg Kundo 2 graph Day 2.jpg Kundo 2 graph Day 3.jpg
     
  10. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry Greene,
    you are doing 9 to 11 data recordings per day?

    .... man I am some sort of ... lazy soul ... I am thinking I am doing good to record the clock's times once a day...

    an update on bonnie and clyde

    I have not done any regulation of clyde over the past few weeks
    and last night I have made another attempt to get bonnie closer to accurate.

    she has been steady in gaining a bit more than a minute a day over the past two weeks.
    so I am thinking the flutter problem is removed.
    Clyde also has been gaining in a steady rate, I can't recall the specific as I write this.
    so the new top block seems to have solved the flutter with him.

    I'll attempt to get them closer to zero over the next week

    I have to find a way to log the temperatures.

    victor
     
  11. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #261 Berry Greene, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    Day 5 ends at 1700GMT Things have continued in the same vein. I'll keep going for a week. Then transfer to a month chart. I'm taking samples whenever I remember. With my wife poorly normal sleep patterns are all over the place and that has given me the opportunity to monitor over those dark cold hours. I'm used to shift work anyway! Here is day 4 sheet with day 5 almost complete. What are we seeing?
    Well if we ignore the first period after the start which synched the time to GMT and the swing to 0 - 6 - 12 - 18 etc. second points - then we aren't too far off track for 1 minute/month which is my first goal. In fact with this clock perhaps my only goal! That new datum can be GMT -7 Secs. if we look at the start on day1 We just come forward a couple of hours and it levels out at -7 secs. Coming forward to Day 5 our latest plot is -20secs
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 4 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 5 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - That is arguably a loss of 13 secs over 5 days or will be soon.
    Kundo 2 graph Day 4.jpg Kundo 2 graph Day 5.jpg Just under 3 secs/day would give us <1.5 mins in a month. Not necessarily that far away? Oh come on........ be generous! One final thought for you. The swing beat is now behind the initial 0 - 6 - 12 sec markers of each minute by about 2 secs. Someone tell me why? That top trace (at the moment) is the background temperature in deg C. {Our stairs actually). Can you see any correlation with the changes in conformance?
    Best rgds, BerryG
     
  12. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    forumers and clockists.
    I have been trying to get bonnie a clyde settled

    I thought I had bonnie near a minute a week in regulation
    and I have made an attempt to get clyde nearer to accurate.

    If my weekend goes as I plan, I will attempt one more adjustment of the two
    if needed, and then stand back and let the pair run.

    some notes on making a pendulum.

    total weight seems to mater, that may strike you as obvious,
    however it matters because of maintaining the balance of the bob
    while adjusting the regulation.

    a heavier bob is far less prone to lose center when removing some weight to speed-up the clock.
    and losing center will also slow the clock...

    one of the adjustments on my invar bob is shifting the weights to get it centered.
    that task takes some time to get right.

    so if you are building one, put a point on the bottom center to aid in repeating center
    my next pendulum bob is a heavier and a smaller in diameter ... brick.

    I will take a photo If I ever get the parts made.

    victor
     
  13. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #263 Berry Greene, Feb 3, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
    KUNDO 9" LANTERN STYLE FROM C1952 Continued results
    Here are my last 3 daily graphs. I won't do another week this way but I will keep the daily spot check figures going - perhaps at 8am each day and we'll see where we are after a month.
    A study of a weeks activity yields a rather surprising result - to me anyway. I didn't know what to expect and I still don't. Is this is typical - as in good or bad? If you take it at its simplest I set a clock to GMT and after a week I check its reading against a source of known accuracy. A radio controlled /corrected clock. {In fact I cross-checked several times using www.time.is They agree within a second}.
    There was an almost immediate loss but once stabilised the time for the next 5/6 days was, (consistently), between 10 & 30 secs slow.
    Then for the last two days there was something of a recovery to where we are between 10 & 20 secs fast.
    That is actually a 20 sec gain over a week where we were never more than 30 seconds late.
    If that was maintained we would see 80 secs gain in a month. I'd settle for that with this clock.
    - - - - - - - - - - - Day 5 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Day 7 - - - - - - - - - - -
    Kundo 2 graph Day 5.jpg Kundo 2 graph Day 6.jpg Kundo 2 graph Day 7.jpg
    You will see that I also plotted the temperature changes. We saw between 15 & 21deg C I can't read much into the temperature effects. If I were forced to - then I'd say that sustained drops in temperature promote a gain - while the converse is also true. Sustained rises usually promote a loss. What do you make of it? Is this what you would expect to get from a medium sized Kundo suspension clock of advanced years?
    Given there was a time not long since when I didn't even get sustained running - this is a triumph. Along the way I have received a huge tranche of help from the folk on this Forum. You know who you are, and I say a big thank you to you all.
    With what I have learned I will go on to see if I can rescue another torsion variety. They are too good and pretty to let go to scrap. There's good varnished brass involved which resists decay even though the case is far from air-tight . They are pretty, quiet & very novel.

    I should also tell you that over the course of the week I have seen a slight variation in the swing. From somewhat less than 200deg to perhaps as much as 250 degrees. I have also seen the beat move by by 2 secs. It is now about 2secs late on where it started.
    That was 0 - 6 - 12 - 18 - 24 etc. second points of each minute. I can't get my head around that at all. Fractional differences would add and subtract - but why both? Purely down to temperature? Really? The over-swing is consistent never less than half an inch. I have not seen any flutter whatsoever.

    I want to finish on something slightly confounding. With their slow beat of 6 secs, these clocks can only ever be accurate to that margin. I have been waiting for the minute hand to step into perfect line with a five minute marker on the dial. Then I note the discrepancy - if any, - as an early or late step. Is that the right way for you?
    Best rgds, BerryG
     
  14. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    I'm putting that Kundo to one side for a while. I can already say that it has been much better for it's readjustment along the lines suggested by John Hubby. Just Look at the graphs for the first week. However, although I have left it to "get on with it" there are now some signs that flutter has returned and is still an issue as the clock is now motoring along some 100 secs ahead of its datum. There is thus no chance of it making the initial target of 1min/mnth in an isochronous way.

    It suggests to me that these clocks are very flutter prone and it's one of those things that requires of me a much better understanding than I have at this time. It looks like a flaw in the mechanism. I wonder if a slow-mo film would help? Perhaps the question should be put around the other way. Not why does it happen - but why would it NOT happen?

    Victor Miranda, who was the initiator of "The Quest" & which is the title of this strand, has hatched a plan to enable a better more collaborative approach to the challenge. We have often been puzzled by the little differences that exist between the Kundo that I have, and the Schatz types he prefers. In order to better facilitate our exchanges Victor has provided me with a Schatz clock from his collection. How generous & devoted to the quest can a man be? I will therefore transfer the object of my endeavours towards the Schatz at this point in time . A re-focus.

    One of the stand-out differences is that the Schatz has no possibility of mis-adjustment of the pallet depths because they are fixed! Yet I can report already, it is no less prone to flutter. In fact it much easier to promote it! Turning the hour hand will promote it every time. It seems to me that THIS is the first hurdle to overcome. Yes it probably is affected by temperature, by air currents, by the linearity of the mechanism power delivery and maybe even the phases of the moon! The clutch is much tighter than the Kundo - I can say that straight away. Much more energy is thus transferred to the going train when the minute hand is set FWD.

    Now it seems to me that If the natural resonance (speed) of the flutter cannot be followed by the mechanism - it cannot start! So whereas all kinds of efforts are made to reduce the friction, the end result surely, is a mechanism with an extended frequency response. This could be heightened even further by the wear & tear in an old clock that ensures loose pivot bearings. This would give it the capability to respond to a wider range of possible flutter frequencies, and this in turn makes it more difficult to "tune " it out of range.

    That is where I am with this project. I need to understand flutter and devise a way to eradicate it. Remove it from the reckoning when setting & assessing the rating. If my clock gains time - I MUST be able to say it is NOT flutter!

    BerryG




     
  15. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    #265 victor miranda, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    forumers,

    some data from bonnie over the past week plus

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - --- -- - - - - accumulated
    date - - - - - bonnie - time - - - - - - - - error - - - - per day - - avg temp
    01/31/18 10:53p - 10:52p - - - - - - - 1 - - -- - -- - -- - - 1
    02/01/18 10:46p - 10:44.10p - - - - - 2 - - -- - -- - -- - 1 - -- - -- - 63.03
    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 63.71
    02/03/18 12:24p - 12:21.55p - - - - - 2 - - -- - -- - -- - - 0 - - -- - - 64.25
    02/04/18 02:38p - 2:35.00p - - - - - 3 - - -- - -- - -- - - 1 - - -- - - 64.98
    02/05/18 11:54p - 11:48.47p - - - - - 5 - - -- - -- - -- - - 2 - - -- - - 64.64
    02/06/18 11:50p - 11:44.53p - - - - - 5 - - -- - -- - -- - - 0 - - -- - - 63.02
    02/07/18 10:45p - 10:39.14p - - - - - 6 - - -- - -- - -- - - 1 - - -- - - 63.85
    - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - 64.41
    02/09/18 10:25p 10:18.00p - - - - - 7 - - -- - -- - -- - - 0.5 - - -- -64.56


    from the raw temp data I can see some temperature sensitivity,
    from the averages presented here it is not as clear.

    the average day times do not correspond to the clock's time recording.
    other than I may or may not have turned the heaters about the same time as I timed the clock.
    bonnie does not have marks for each minute so I am thinking that does not help with accuracy

    I am going to turn on the room heaters and leave them on for a couple of days
    now that I have the above for a base. a couple of days should make clear
    what temperature and change of rate factor may be.

    I have to do the same for Clyde next.
     
  16. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #266 Berry Greene, Feb 10, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    I await Victor's results with burning anticiapation.........!
    I think that a graph would make it clearer.
    That said, I now have 4 clocks and two watches on test.
    When I say test it really means that they aren't very satisfactory.
    I did say that I was putting the Kundo (NoKunDo) to one side on the back burner. However, I will report that it was +110 (in advance) secs this morning. That gain is since 26th January. It will run a day all fairly level then whee.....! A pretty big gain. More than a beat.

    My intention is to leave it for a while, then study closely again for a day or two after 3 weeks of running to try and assess the nature of its gains. I oughtn't to jump the gun on this but I fully expect to find a small amount of spasmodic flutter is responsible.
    To be honest I am both fascinated and nauseated by flutter. I feel a need to understand the process not by which it starts but by which it stops. I know what you're going to say but it won't do!

    In keeping with the quest and the generosity of the quest-master I shall be switching my allegiance to Schatz clocks. I need at least one of each size. On the test bench as of this moment are a medium and a baby schatz. Neither are yet performing very well. I have seen the flutter that can be precipitated at will when you wind the hands on. Or indeed back! What exactly is this phenomenon?
    As a pre-requisite of better long therm accuracy it needs to be understood and taken out of the equation before any further progress can be made. That is my night & day pre-occupation. My raison d'etre. For the moment - not forever :<)) ..;) - a real smilie!

    Question 1 - Is there a way I could keep flutter going ad infinitum? Suppose for a moment that this is what I wanted! Stop the swing? Would it be maintained?

    Question 2 - Is there a mechanism that could be a better form of escapement? {One that doesn't flutter!}.

    Question 3 - What should the arc and over-swing be for the smaller Schatz JUM/7 ? Pin Pallet escapement.

    Question 4 - Can I bore you all for a few moments more? Although I have had a passing interest in horology since a teenager, life somehow didn't permit me all the time I needed to get into it very deeply. My knowledge is sketchy, along with my physical knowhow and my tools. This is my first ever foray into torsion clock technology. I have already said it has me in thrall. Would I be right to think that fascination is what sold these clocks in their thousands? Would I also be right to say that their accuracy is what ultimately let them down; let's just say disappointed their owners? Why else would there have been examples with electric balances stretching back pre-quartz? My deduction, and yes you can shoot me down here, is that the various manufacturers could NOT impove on the clock accuracy using a mechanical torsion escapement. One thing to run 400 days - quite another to also be a lousy timekeeper. I'll bet they tried very hard to overcome that shortfall and to save their reputation. Can we be any more successful? Your comments gentlemen please.

    Question 5 - In electronics - in order to overcome indeterminate conditions we have the use of special circuitry that will sharpen up the edges of electrical events. The schmitt trigger. It stops stuttering and in conjunction with a latch can hold a value firmly and cleanly. It is said to have a wide hysteresis. The nearest mechanical equivalent I can think of is the spring toggle. As in a lightswitch to make the action positive. {Should that be decisive?}. This flutter or chatter is a similar thing. The swing action is so slow that the indeterminite period is lengthened. We need more "snap" Once having decided to go it needs to go! No mind changes!

    Gentlemen - put your minds to this and help to save the droves of these clocks that are out there but sit idle and deteriorating. Join The Quest today! We need accuracy. Make yourself famous. :):confused::rolleyes:
    Rgds BerryG
     
  17. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    more data.
    this is clyde with invar pendulum.
    more steady... if not more accurate...

    date==========clyde=====time========== cumltve - per day - avg temp
    02/01/18===== 12:30a - 12:30a ========== 0 ======= 0 ===== 63.03
    ====================================================== 63.71
    02/03/18===== 12:24p - 12:22.10p ========== 2 ====== 1 ===== 64.25
    02/04/18===== 2:38p -- 2:35.15p -========== 3 ====== 1 ===== 64.98
    02/05/18===== 11:54p - 11:48.26p ========== 6 ====== 3 ===== 64.64
    02/06/18===== 11:53p - 11:45.21p ========== 8 ====== 2 ===== 63.02
    02/07/18===== 10:47p - 10:38.00p ========== 9 ====== 1 ===== 63.85
    ======================================================= 64.41
    02/09/18===== 10:30p - 10:18.18p ========== 12 ===== 1.5===== 64.56

    I am going to add VBBC's data from the same time next post.
    call it a third opinion

    Berry, I'll toss my opinions onto yet another following post.

    victor
     
  18. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    this is a clock that I have been tinkering to get to run steady.
    it has ah easy to read dial, so I have the most confidence in this timing.
    my read of this data, is the clock definitely is temp sensitive and a daily average of two degrees
    is able to cause about a half a minute difference over one day.
    all three clocks run in the same room and VBBC is about 6 inches higher on the wall.

    date ******** VBBC ***** time ***** cumltve ****per day *** avg temp
    01/31/18 ***** 10:51p - 10:52.55p **** 1.5
    02/01/18 ***** 10:44p - 10:45.08p ***** 1 *********-0.5 ***** 63.03
    ******************************************************** 63.71
    02/03/18 ***** 12:20p - 12:22.38p ***** 2 ********** 1 ***** 64.25
    02/04/18 ***** 2:33p -- 2:35.50p -***** 2.5 ********* 0.5 ***** 64.98
    02/05/18 ***** 11:45p - 11:49.12p ***** 3 ********* 0.5 ***** 64.64
    02/06/18 ***** 11.42p - 11:45.58p ***** 3.5 ******** 0.5 ***** 63.02
    02/07/18 ***** 10:34p - 10:38.28p ***** 4 ********** 0.75 *** 63.85
    ********************************************************* 64.41
    02/09/18 ***** 10:12p -10:18.47p ***** 6.5*****1.25 ********** 64.56

    victor
     
  19. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor your temps look tight. Average?
    I see some skipping there don't I? That's just what I get here with "Victim" (I like that more & more!)
    He's + 3.5m since this morning!
    Yeah so wrong wire thickness I fitted to JUM/7 which would make it faster. If I get it to run continuously.
    So now I'm back to yesterday with it. Just won't sustain. It could be a lot of things I suppose. A bit weird though.
    Lunch is up
    Berry
     
  20. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,
    well, yeah the averages are somewhat close and the clocks do show
    what most people would say is normal 400 day clock behavior
    my basement/clock-dungeon when is not heated and from the temps recorded
    bounces over a couple of hours from 60 to 64 ish
    and when I turn on a heater I get 67-68 as a high and 65-66 and not so much bounding.
    think 63 and 67. If there is heat the average will rise but it is a rare day that I have heat more than 8 hours.

    thus the heating test. I only left the heaters on for the past few days
    and I will record another day after the heat is on.

    here is yesterday's start and a little earlier today.
    I recorded this just before I started the heaters

    feb 10 3 ish pm

    bonnie 2:57 time is 2:48.52
    Clyde 3:02 time is 2:49.17
    VBBC 2:44 time is 2:50.06
    the temp recorder was dumped and cleared and started

    feb 11 9:30 ish pm

    bonnie 9:41 time is 9:31.27
    Clyde 9:47 time is 9:31.48
    VBBC 9:25 time is 9:32.10
    the temp recorder was dumped and cleared and started
    recorder dump says the average temp was 68.4

    I will do this tomorrow when I can
    and turn off the heaters.

    ... and then continue on an easier to adjust invar bob.
    because I can see a pattern.

    victor
     
  21. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    ok to decode this a bit, Berry got a Jum/7 clock, and it is a cutie.
    and he has another clock called 'victim' I deny knowing anything about where he got it
    photographic evidence I can hope was polished out....

    he and I were discussing ways and alternatives to getting them settled.

    however, he did notice that on one day both bonnie and clyde seemed to advance
    in a suspicious conspiracy.
    as they are both on the same shelf, I blamed earth quakes....

    as VBBC didn't join in the crime, I can't easily blame my Robic chrono/stopwatch.

    both clocks fluttering at the same time seems unlikely unless something shook the shelf or house.

    victor



    victor
     
  22. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Wow Victor - I have been so busy. Therefore not much progress on the quest to report yet.

    Now let me be the first to tell you that ground tremors will affect both clocks that are side by side on the same shelf! Even an English guy knows that! So might a passing mouse in the middle of the night! How can you be sure? Who is doing your night watch?

    My Jum/7 will be a back marker in The Quest. I bought it - well because I thought it looked cute. I'm having to be satisfied with it's looks at the moment as it is a staller. Runs a few hours - then stops. It has a good swing 270 and good over-swing - the beat is right. It looks clean - but....
    I might be on to strip & clean it before I utter another word.

    The problem today has been a carriage clock - repair for a "friend." It came to me in pieces - very handy that. Why can't all my "customers" be that helpful? Four hours solid graft - no charge & for nothing! What a guy! Ah but it's going now very well. It looks good too because I cleaned EVERYTHING!

    I tell you this to assuage any doubts people may have after reading my stuff on Torsion suspension 400 day Anniversary movements. They are AWFUL! I can fix clocks. I have fixed watches more easily. These torsions are an "extortion." I am in love with a hussy breed. Twirling their skirts so provocatively - promising me a good time................ !

    My next priority to be & keep on message is definitely to make a longer top block as per your specification - for "Victim" - who has been running continuously but with the odd flutter. BTW what ball-park figure should I work to?

    Meanwhile NoKunDo seems to have stabilised again to some extent - a total gain of 2.5 minutes over 18 days. There was a time when I would have been pleased to settle for that but now this quest....... well it blows normality away. I am up for it but be prepared for some way out suggestions from me. Some of them might even be clean!

    Pass my tablets!
    BerryG
     
  23. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    :-D
    My Sweetie has noticed I am kinda stupid for a painted face....
    and the average 400 day clock takes a whole lotta wooing.

    Hi Berry,
    rule of thumb for taller top block.
    get clock going with the fork as high as gives good overswing and good lock.
    do try for the highest fork setting the place just before you find it gets real picky for level and beat..

    Measure the fork to top block. The book measures at 3 plus a bit mm for a schatz 53 type.
    make the top block taller than a bit more than half the difference.
    as an example, you get 6 mm.
    I decided I could shorten the top block easier than add to it.
    so I aimed at 2mm taller. instead of just half the difference.

    that example was from VBBC and I did not shorten the top block.
    the only change I did to this rather fussy clock.
    If there is a down side I have not seen it

    this is headed a bit off topic, and I gotta ask.
    a carriage clock like with balance wheel and an 8 day main spring?

    victor
     
  24. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    since last post on time and temp logging

    feb 12 11 ish pm

    bonnie 11:10 time is 11:01.17
    Clyde 11:18 time is 11:01.49
    VBBC 10:54 time is 11:02.22
    the temp recorder was dumped and cleared and started
    recorder dump says the average temp was 70.2


    feb 13 7:30 ish pm

    bonnie 7:55 time is 7:44.35
    Clyde 8:02 time is 7:43.16
    VBBC 7:36 time is 7:44.16
    the temp recorder was dumped and cleared and started
    recorder dump says the average temp was 64.8

    I plan to post tomorrow's times and average temperature.
    and since I can see a pattern...
    I will put more effort into a second easier to adjust invar bob.

    victor
     
  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Just to recap here, is everyone taking their readings by hand?

    Eric
     
  26. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    yes?

    you have another way?

    victor
     
  27. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Data logging using an inexpensive micro controller should be fairly easy to work out. I was thinking about using an inexpensive atmospheric sensor (pressure, temp, humidity) triggered by a clip on sound pickup when the escape wheel drops. That way you can get the timing data too. I'm still working out a user interface and how to graph it all in real time.

    Eric
     
  28. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    I have a temperature logger. once every 10 minutes.
    I can be set to a wide range of times in its logging.

    I had not considered other logging sensors.
    I was thinking about how to log the clock's action.

    given that it looks to me like about 5 degrees will get you a minute a day change,
    that the 400 day clocks I have decidedly need temp compensation.

    You think humidity and air pressure will also have an effect?

    victor
     
  29. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I've thought about various methods to digitize what the clock is doing without modifying it. By far the easiest is listen for the drops. From there you can compare the differences with a compensated real time clock for gain or loss. You won't know what the hands show, but by count of teeth you can predict what they should show at any given time from timing the drops. If it flutters you would see that in the data. I suspect you could also see variations in the escape wheel teeth.

    I do not think pressure and humidity would make a difference, but I think Berry mentioned it in one of his posts.

    Didn't you say you reset your temp logger every day? I was thinking of something you could set up and forget about since this is a long term project.

    Eric
     
  30. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Etmb61,
    The temperature logger I have has a set up that allows it to record about 6 months
    at the ten minute interval I have it set to do.
    I could double that time by asking for every 20 minutes.

    the only reason I had it going was to see what the error rate for temperature happened to be.
    .... and It took me some time to get a clock settled enough that I trusted my results.

    If the invar Bob I made were less difficult to adjust, I suspect I'd be a lot closer to my goal.

    In seeking this goal,
    I have decided that 400 day clocks will skip or flutter when rigged up as I have Bonnie.
    which is a fork lowered from the recommended measurement in the book.

    the fact that BOTH bonnie and clyde shifted a similar amount forward on the same day
    implies something shook them some how.
    so I do not feel I have the pair out of the flutter woods yet.

    I am currently building a bob that I expect will be easier to adjust
    and of similar total weight to the bob that comes with this type of clock.
    that should make suspension spring rigging more comparable to the original specs.

    the only reason I can think to add sensors is to help sort out why a clock has varied from correct time.
    I was not planning to maintain the temperature logging?

    ... well... once I am sure the temp is not the cause of inaccuracy. but I am pretty sure at this point that an invar bob will
    keep better accuracy compared to the brass ones on this test.

    victor
     
  31. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor et al.

    My new wires arrived today. I have Schatz 53 "VICTIM" up & running fitted with an 0.0023" but with its original top block. My new long one - when offered up, looks to be just too long and then it crossed my mind that I might never know some statistics if I don't start with the original block. Yes I know - please don't nag!

    Another thing I did was to invert the fork. Two set-up maestros have recommended this approach and it makes sense to me. Well it is running but with a huge gain of one hour in the six it has run!

    STATS
    Rotation 250 deg. Over-swing is >1/2" - The beat not exactly perfect after 6 hours but very close.
    I have just counted the beats over 5 mins. A little bit slow at 48.5. {NOT FAST but SLOW} !!! (6.18s/beat).

    So once again a large gain of 10mins/hour that should be a small hourly loss of less than 2m/hr.

    IT MUST BE FLUTTER! Why don't I ever see it then? I'm going to reset the time. Should I raise the fork? Not yet. I will slightly adjust the beat.
    All done - and it's right by my left eyeball and left ear. One minute loss after 35 mins . I see no flutter! Not on my watch!

    BTW - I'm still observing, (no not literally), NoKunDo which is running and has now has accumulated a gain of +3m46s over 22 days of operational progress. That gain didn't start until after the first week. Something has changed and I don't think it is flutter. Not the temperature either. More likely the pendulum cluster. I will re-commence the spot checks as from now for the last days of the month.

    I feel the need to say - these torsion clocks are the biggest challenge to one's sanity of all the clocks & watches I have so far encountered. One doesn't even have the excuse of small size or out of sight motion. It's all there to see! But what do I see? NOTHING!! :(
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  32. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    That would be very useful. I want to know what sort of sensors to use around this clock. Magnetic, optic, etc. I used a microphone for a video just to give it life and that was ok BUT I imagine it would pick up all sorts of erroneous stuff if used as a sensor; even with a filter to catch the tic's & toc's.
    The micro-controller - a PIC yes? A data logger run by a PIC - yes? I think I have one! It's old. Not been used for 25 years! I might just have the software for it. Mmm........ thanks for jogging my memory.
    BerryG
     
  33. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Berry,

    I'm starting with an Arduino. Most of the design stuff is already taken care of. There's an IDE for it and all the code is open source. Lots of sensor types to choose from off the shelf. A microphone pickup can easily interface with the controller and you don't need to modify the clock. I've also thought of using ir proximity sensors to measure the rotation of the pendulum, but have not worked that out yet.

    Eric
     
  34. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Thank you for your response.
    Yes I was thinking of a white patch on the pendulum (one of the bobs in this case). The problem then is the reversal would give a second pulse wouldn't it? That means a polarity clipping diode .... well it did when I was a boy. Perhaps things have changed to where one can buy in exactly what you want. Have you any suggestions?
    If the pendulum is used as the keying for the samples it will automatically record the rate - won't it? What is more it gives one another way of rating the clock. You see I have a frequency counter and event counter. It would just need a pulse from the pendulum at each beat or cycle. We know how many cycles or beats we should have each minute/hour/day/month and in 5 or 10 minutes you could roughly rate the clock. Disagreements with the registered time would mean likely fluttering IF it is a gain ..... Yeah?
    6ses/beat = 10/min = 600/hr = 14400/day
    12 secs/cycle - You should get half that.
    Any skipping/fluttering would also be very evident . Ideally I suppose a keyed data logger is the guy needed?
    I'll look up Arduino
    You further comments etmb61 would be valuable. All comments would be welcomed.
    Rgds, BerryG
     
  35. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Hi-yer all dedicated to the quest parties
    Hello even to the merely interested, the damn right puzzled and the incredulous.

    "Victim" the Schatz 53 is now on song! Well it has completed 3 hours without any sign of a flutter. Yes and it's smack on time so far as a 3hr test is evidence. Oh how I'd like to take the credit but alas I cannot. The help & tuition this poor little English guy has received via this Forum is incredible. I'm going to ask HM if perhaps Knighthoods would be in order. They know who they are. Look back in the posts, you'll find them.

    However, I do want to point out that 3 hours is a while short of a year! I do realise that. I also realise that these clocks are never far from a flutter!
    Like they say of rats in England - one is never far away. Within feet apparently. If I alter the hands it will flutter as the pendulum goes through its null point. Off goes the Graham sparked it would seem by the extra energy. There's no lock as such is there? Not at that point. The release of the impulse pallet sees the EW drop. {Have I got that terminology correct?}. The next tooth is caught and bounces - or does it just arrive too soon under this extra power - and hit the impulse surface instead of the locking surface?
    The anchor is thrown back and the other pallet is hammered by the impulse surface, and orf we jolly well go! This must be why a steady drive power is essential. No sharp kicks. Smooth & even; clean and lubricated. That you would get from a properly cleaned & lubricated going train. including the mainspring of course. Well we have that. So are we saying that some flutter is inevitable when adjusting the time on these clocks?

    Just one more thing. My rating nut is fully advanced. I cannot turn it any further (not centred) as I would really like. The suspension spring I have fitted is 0.0023. Do I need to go up a step to a 0.0024 spring? That would speed me up by 4 mins/day - check? Is that thickness available? You have to bear it mind that 3 Horolovar spring pack is £11 over here ($ x 1.4). I need to get this right.

    I'm sorry there is another thing. A very pertinent impatient thing. I think the quest is doomed until flutter is a non possibility. It cannot just be subdued or waiting around a dark corner to re-appear. It cannot be that a sudden sharp change of temperature will bring it scurrying out of the shadows to add even one more cycle to the registered time. I want to think of a way to widen the hysteresis - so that it's a non probability. How would an electrified escape sound to you chaps? Eh? At the moment my thoughts are that it is still triggered by the pendulum rotation. That the power for that rotation still comes from a mainspring. A hybrid clock. But how?

    Oh my is that the time? I must fly. A slight gain maybe......... Twenty-four hours will tell me.

    Rgds, BerryG
     
  36. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Victor Hello!

    I feel the need to report some progress with "Victim."

    I have him running rather well now. I had to raise the fork a tad (0.5mm) and adjust the rating twice over 24 hours. However he's running very close to time now. The rotation is in phase with my quartz stop-watch showing very precise 6sec beats. There has been no evidence of any flutter since I raised the fork - just a slight gain which I have now adjusted out. True the rating nut is not far from total fast forward - I think a 0.0024" spring might have been a better choice but the arc is now greater at 335 deg. The over-swing is more than adequate in excess of 1/2" - the beat perfect. Timekeeping now seems correct to the second - but I need a longer test period. I need to start taking samples. My relief is palpable. I feel as if there is at least a chance here.

    I was still able to promote flutter by setting the minute hand but no-where near so easily. It's there but further away. The clock is sited in a very warm place and cannot stay there for too long. That could upset the situation. However, I want to enjoy the moment.

    I have had some very interesting exchanges with etmb61 (above) concerning the use of electronics to help in every way from data collection to intelligent anti-flutter devices. He has been very inspiring. I will be looking into that in due course. Just automated data collection would be a relief would it not?

    Best rgds, BerryG
     
  37. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,

    I have been laid low by some sort of infection or other.
    and now have a round of antibiotics and am taking them.
    I have been reading this forum and been feeling too exhausted to comment.

    I dunno what to say about the suspension spring.
    I have used 024 and sanded them. leastways I think that is what I did.

    While I'd like to have a computer based Hawk watching my clock for
    flutter and localised house shakes, I do not think I want to
    build and program the Hawk, weeeeeeell not until I get the
    invar pendulum I am building done.

    when I was contemplating how to find the causes of inaccuracy I had
    I considered using a rasperry-pi and a video camera set for a daily loop

    Right now I am chasing getting the new bob closer to 12 seconds.
    an easy idea got me to 10.5 from 10. To do that 4 times is not possible.
    off to the harder making and hanging curtains for the perimeter.

    victor
     
  38. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Oh gosh Victor get yourself well and forget the quest for a while. These bugs are very lowering. Sorry to hear about that.

    I am hoping that I can get some help with the monitoring. It's a side issue that I am pursuing on the back burner. I know data loggers can be bought for such purposes anyway. It might be an interesting diversion to fiddle with.

    "Victim" is being so well behaved - something must be up! A tiny correction of the rate might be coming tomorrow. It's pretty tight now. I want to see how he deals with the night temps. How he deals with seeing my face squinting closely at his dial. I think he has found some sort of respect for me at the moment! You shoukd see his rotation!

    Take care then and ignore the froth.
    Berry
     
  39. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Hello Victor et al

    First to ask how you are now? Feeling any better?

    I have had a very busy week. It looks likely to continue that way into next week BUT I have still been taking my readings on "NoKundo" as well as the two Schatz.

    Thus can I report that Schatz 53 "Victim" is now very close to being precise. He seems to have a nice sensible predictability I have not seen in a mechanical torsion before. I will need to ask your advice here. The daily gain is of the order of 12 secs. (Two beats). I really don't think there is any flutter. It is a smooth linear gain. I just need to know by how much would you now be turning the rating nut? I don't think I am yet quite close enough to start a graph. Perhaps I need some lessons in rating. I will search the forum.

    This is where some automation would be a great help. I still have that on the back-burner and I will be looking further into it.

    "NoKunDo" is now settled into a daily gain of 15 secs. (2.5 beats). That is over the last week. I'll take it to the 28th and decide what adjustments to make.

    My little baby JUM/7 is only just coming to heel. I think it's a little boy but no definite name for him yet. There is now a small loss. It is very very touchy with regard to hand setting and flutter but my figures do not suggest flutter is a feature of its normal progress.

    To sum up I would say that I am at the 2 -3 days between adjustments of "VICTIM" - and probably around 12 hours on JUM/7

    How are you doing with the Invar?

    Best regards,
    Berry
     
  40. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    Well, so far, I have a Schatz 1000-day clock that's about a minute behind since sometime in the fall. Unfortunately, it's on a counter in the basement that gets quite cold in the winter and warm in summer, so regulation is all about compromises over time. Also, the Schatz clocks commonly have jeweled anchor bushings which helps a lot.

    One thing though, is since it's a 1000-day, over a single year, the power is quite consistent. I don't think a 400-day clock will hold that well.

    It'll be interesting to see the overall accuracy at the one year mark. Gains/losses during the year will drive the OCD crowd nuts, but it really doesn't bother me as long as it works itself out in the end.

    -Derek
     
  41. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,
    am still on my face...
    my eyes are not tracking together and that is making doing any hand work a squint.
    eyes are incrementally better over last week.
    on the other hand, I am not feeling like death is a good option anymore
    So I feel a LOT better.

    with eyepatch in place I am going to see If I can get some machining done tonight.

    and maybe take a photo or two.

    a 1000 day clock... for the amount I have spent on invar, I coulda bought one.

    :-D would still need the invar however.

    and Derek, that sounds like a good clock.

    victor
     
  42. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Hello Derek.

    Thanks for the interesting response. It hadn't "struck" me before that a 1000 day might have a more level mainspring advantage - but of course it does in covering just a year. I was impressed by 400 days and all those rotations - 1000 days is daunting to imagine such a mainspring!

    Yes both my Schatz have jewelled anchor pivots. I think your accuracy over better than 3 months seems very good to me here struggling to regulate down to fine limits. It would be handy to know though what sort of variation is acceptable. My first goal is 1m/month. I think that would mean +/- 2secs/day or less than 1/2 beat which is quite difficult to see. I'm lining up with Time.is - exact time, any time zone and my radio clock. I don't think I can see down to the very second. The beat is 6 secs wide - which fact leads me to an accumulation method of several readings each day. It's a demanding discipline to do that manually when I am running 3 clocks for the quest.

    We need a better method and you will see Eric's suggestions for this in the thread above. I need to make room for such a project and that means moving out a body of other work out before I can make a start on it. I'd love to give it a go - so I am looking forward to trying in due course. Meantime it's manual notation.

    The temperature is degrees C here (you are allowed to smile) which makes it seem less! I am seeing daily night/day excursions of about 15 to 21C with very occasional excesses on that. In fact most days sees us well inside those limits. We are taking spot checks and we only get an indication of the temp. durations when I make a graph. I need an assistant with this project!

    I am grateful to read of others experiences and I thank you for that information. That's a very good result for you Derek. No I don't intend to be TOO obsessive but I think a benchmark for variation over the year needs to be set or I'll just stop the clocks at midnight and wait! :<))
    Regards, BerryG
     
  43. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Well that's some good and some bad news Victor.
    Please be careful with tools & especially machines. No depth perception is dangerous!
    Death is pretty much irreversible - unless you're a clock that is! Of course I suppose you could be a robot or an intelligent machine with virtual clocks mapped into your digitised mind. There's the Schatz profile over there to engage at will with variations of model as required.
    How on earth could Berry turn the rating nut the wrong way - it's an impossible event! These fallible humans.

    He also did what? Spilled ink all over his PC keyboard. We don't have time for this. Please send an interrupt. Yes but he did that on Friday. What do you wanna know about keyboards? The first trick is to get them apart............... Water & electricity!........ I didn't realise you could... Oh without power....Mmm I can't see that working out! All but two keys working - ah! Which two? Oh it varies ... yes not really surprised. What's he like with clocks? His temperature tests are extreme. He has an oven. Why not the microwave? Go on then YOU tell him. :<))

    My Schatz variety are both maintaining and accurate to within a yard. The last part of the rating is slow and painstaking UNLESS you have a better way? A few seconds per day but I am only allowed 2/day and even that is too much for the quest by 12 times.

    See the previous post from Derek? He is getting mighty close despite the odds. This is the example we need. This might be do-able after all. I'm just lagging behind the pace (actually I'm in front of it), I mean in terms of the goal. Never turn your back on the goal!

    Glad to hear you're on the mend. We cannot afford to lose you!

    Rgds, Berry
    P.S. Delayed message from several hours ago?!!!! Lost but found ?? What did I do wrong?
     
  44. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    By way of an update & progress report.

    First of all Kundo 2 aka NoKunDo.
    You will see that I made graphs for the first week of operation and which I published earlier. The early stability was promising but short-lived. After that first week the clock began to gain. Nothing I know of precipitated it. At the end of the month (30 days) it was 320 secs ahead. (>5m). That was all gained in the last 3 weeks.
    I have since changed its perch and retarded the rating nut. As things stand it is losing approx. 15s/day. In other words it is difficult to rate and somewhat unstable. The time I have devoted to this little eh - "fella" is a shameful reflection of my competence. Now in a new but much more hostile place it might even turn in a better performance. What a perplexing little twirler he is.

    Thus has my attention turned to the Schatz 53 I call "Victim." He is now in a good position, turning in a much better stability but still refusing to be accurately rated. He wants to be slightly fast or slightly slow. Just a beat or so a day. Consistently fast or slow. I cannot rate him any closer!! I don't "believe" that flutter is an issue here. Perhaps I am missing a vital point or I am just an incompetent person. Even for a minute/month I need no more than 2 secs/day. That is one third of a beat by my reading? The quest goes on but without much progress on my part.
    There endeth the report.
    Best regards, BerryG
     
  45. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    #295 Berry Greene, Apr 10, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    Hello to you all.
    You might recall my intention to support Victor Miranda in his quest for the elusive if not impossible. Everyone has helped me in this not least Victor himself who sent this Limey a whole clock - so he did. I have called it "VICTIM" as he likes names! {It's a Schatz 53}. Thank you Victor. I am so impressed with your generosity and intention to see this quest yield results.
    Now I set this, (all my 400 day torsions) in accord with the data published here by John Hubby well over a month ago. My results now are so much better. Thank you again John. At first Victim looked on track to make the minute a month that John & others regularly get. I have kept meticulous records and produced a very easy to read & follow graph. {Please tell me it is}. It includes an ambient temperature trace and a daily track of the rate. For the sake of the wild suggestion I have put in the moon phases. Nothing there that I can see.
    However from a very slight +2 to +3 secs per day gains the clock, with no obvious reason to me, has very gradually increased its gallop. It has just made + 3 minutes in the Lunar month BUT extending to 31 days we see a +4 min gain. That is long enough to see the same moon phase prevail.
    Here is the graph. Does anyone have any ideas on this please? I am perplexed.
    This is just a thumbnail - if you open the attachment it will be clearer.
    Schatz 53 month graph 9thMar .jpg I have now reset "VICTIM" to BST and moved the rating nut to retard a little bit. I am awaiting a new result and will continue to record the progress with a view to making a new graph if the performance levels out.
    Let me say this: I think the quest is over ambitious but it has captured my interest. It seems from what has been said that the taller variety of 400 day mechanism would give better results. I am looking out for a bargain as they don't come particularly cheap here.
    Conditions obviously need to be near to perfect and I'm sure that I fall short of that. I am thinking of the site primarily. There might be some vibration, (solid flint wall), or draught. However it won't be much and I'm at a loss to see what more I can do in this regard.
    Gentlemen & Ladies, Your comments would be most welcome.
    Sincerely,
    BerryG
     
  46. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User

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    Hi Berry,
    oh, man, that is a lot of careful work.

    My look at it says there is some tepmerature induced change. (somehow)

    and that does not seem to explain all of the timing shift.

    first I have to ask because I would think the clock would go slower as the average temperature rose
    I can see the temperature went up... is the clock reading a few minutes fast?
    at 12 oclock is the clock stating 12:05 or 11:55?

    (I struggled with signs of vectors in high school math)

    we can assume temp and time shift happen as depicted.
    we may not know what is causing the shift in regulation
    for example the suspension wire shifts more than the bob and in the reverse direction.
    Truly clutching at straws; humidity or gravity shifts have more effect than we know right now.

    lets assume temperature is the cause of the shifts

    it looks like 19 degrees is where your clock is set to zero loss or gain.
    it looks like latency is about one day or that it takes one day for the new temperature to
    show in your readings.
    It also looks like the clock tends to not reset when the temp cools. (another effect we will come to know.)
    cooler temps have a longer latency may be another explanation.

    now to do what I tend to do because I tend to want to be certain.
    If you look at the data... the clock seems to be gaining at a steady 1 second per day on most days.
    ( am ignoring the jumps in one day for now) it is the jumps in one day that are a concern for me.


    From my earlier post I had decided we have some evidence that "about 5 degrees will get you a minute a day change,"
    we will have to change that to 2.5 degrees C....

    your clock has temp shifted that far. and If I were more certain of the direction.
    then I'd say you are doing great!

    victor
     
  47. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Thanks Victor. Good observations.

    It's really odd how human perspective can change over time. Not many months back (Sept) I was praying to the almighty just to let my clock keep running. It was the people of this Forum that rescued me from insanity! Yet here I go much wants more and chasing 1 min/month.
    Don't worry me about the Vectors Victor - I too was mystified at school. I seem to think they go round ACW {To you in the US that is CCW}.

    Well I didn't start my month until the clock was on it exactly for several days. gains & losses of 1 or 2 seconds. {Almost too small to accurately measure and why bother? IT showed such good promise slowly drifting into an increasing +ve gain.

    TIME CHECKS
    All I have to do is look for a precise minute on the VICTIM. The dial is marked in minutes. I can see the beats moving the hands. I can be accurate to a beat if not better than that. I am reading off then from my radio clock and calculating the difference in seconds. Are we ahead (as in plus) or behind (as in minus). So as it ended Victim will indicate 12 noon exactly 4 minutes BEFORE it should. It is therefore 240 second ahead +240.

    The centre horizontal line of the graph is zero gain/loss. Ideally it will be absolutely that. However, if my clock really needs a 2 min adjustment I could treat it as an offset. The point is stability. Consistent operation. It stays at 2 mins ahead day in day out. No gain, no loss.
    As it happens if you set the time slightly ahead to an exact minute, and you wait for the real time to hit that same mark and let go of the stalled pendulum - I find it rotates in exact time releasing a step (escaping) every 6 secs to step the hands though the minutes & hours.
    I hope that is clearer to you now.

    I am reading those figures looking for an escape is consistent at one or 2 secs /day gain which then becomes 3 then 4 sec /day increasing each day until on the last day is 20 secs.
    For 1 min / month the time gain (or loss) must be less than about 2 secs. 30 days x 2 = 60 secs = 1m

    If we had both losses and gains that would produce a result without being truly isochronous. But a result nevertheless.

    I won't need to do much now. Get up every morning and take down the readings.
    I am also noting the rotation in degrees and the over-swing. I meant to write that on the graph. Very consistent for the Schatz 53 at marginally less than 360 degrees & 1/2 " of over-swing.

    I'll run again, and see what happens as well as await any suggestions. Mainspring? No signs of any change in the rotation but could it be??

    Of course there is the possibility of some un-thought of, unknown fault. Something loose maybe?

    Onward & upwards
    Berry
     
  48. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Well it was on one day of the year.

    P7211305.jpg
     
  49. Derek Smith

    Derek Smith Registered User
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    My Schatz 1000-day clock was right on point from last August (2017) until about January, then I noticed it was just a bit ahead. That increased to several minutes ahead and finally about 40 minutes ahead by about mid June 2018. I have not adjusted it because I want to see when it starts to stabilize again, if it does. The rate of change has slowed though, compared to March/April timeframe.

    One thing is since it's a 1000-day and not a 400-day, it's got a lot more spring tension, especially when fully wound. As the spring unwinds, it seems to run a bit faster. Also, as the seasons change, it seems to speed up and slow down, but the amount is inconsistent, likely due to the spring tension over that time period.

    Another factor appears to be definitely temperature related. My shop, and nearly all my clocks, are in the basement. It's always cooler than the rest of the house, but at least no sun light to mess with. Currently, while the rest of the house is roughly 78-80F, the shop is 68-73F (awesome). In the colder months, it's in the 60-66F range.

    My goal is to wait until early August and take that final reading and compare it to the day I started, then average it all out and call that the needed amount of adjustment. I won't wind it, but let it go another year and see how that goes. This will take a few years, but I'd like to see if it'll stay consistent from year-to-year rather than day-to-day.

    Patience over time brings lessons more deeply learned. Rear that any way you want, it still applies. ;-)

    Derek
     
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  50. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Bravo Derek and thank you for the excellent post. Very clear. Mmm.... despite all that is said, and all that I have read - my deduction is that mainspring tension must affect the time keeping. Quite why the evidence points to a faster escape over time as the mainspring loses some power absolutely eludes me - but it does look that way. All evidence gathered here or by my own experience points that way. I have looked for a reduction in the rotation to match. I cannot report any so far. There is talk about isochronicity. I am taking that to mean absolutely even and equal parcels of time. I would believe a torsion pendulum exhibits that from the start of a rotation (shall we say of 600 degrees) when allowed to decay naturally in its own time. Right down to just before it comes to rest. However, in our need to have it maintain we impart to it tiny but absolutely equal pulses of energy. How can we be so sure they really are equal. What happens if the average pulse isn't always consistent? Is that OK? Win some time - lose some time - but on average in time?

    How could you possibly know if the pulses are actually equal? How could you know that they don't change over time. If they do gradually degenerate as seems likely when the mainspring runs down what then what happens to the isochronicity?
    Think this way:- The rotation was about to reverse when it was given a little push. The overswing is the measure of this isn't it? The pendulum has been delayed in its reverse for sure but now has more kinetic energy and speeds up to counteract the loss. Can anyone tell me that it really does exactly that?
    What about these electronic measuring gismos. Do they reveal any truth on all this theory & promote better understanding?
    This is my puzzle - my lack of deep understanding. Any ideas to put forward?
    Best rgds BerryG
     

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