the quest to get a mechanical 400 day to stay within a minute or so a year.

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by victor miranda, Jan 19, 2017.

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  1. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    an update.

    I made a shelf for three 400 day clocks
    it is specifically to hold the two clocks in this trial thread.
    ( I've a spare clock or two...)

    I named the two bonnie and clyde so I can have a short reference to each of the pair.

    I think clyde might have a flutter as he was 4 minutes fast yesterday and only three minutes fast today.
    In other words, he was a minute slow in the second day.

    I set them up at about 6:30 pm and last seen they were running.

    photo[​IMG]
     

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  2. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User
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    Actually...After thinking about it a bit more, I can see where I was not getting a reasonably simple concept.
     
  3. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    an update.

    I have not adjusted Bonnie the control clock for the past two days.
    it is within a minute of correct time. a couple more days we may see a shift.
    Clyde was a minute slow again today so I adjusted him.

    I added weight (replaced one rod with a slightly heavier rod)
    went from .39 grams to .54 grams, if my scale is to be believed.
    A three minute timed run was 3 minutes exactly.

    I have a third 400 day clock in the same room. I thought it was close to correct.
    It gained about 4 minutes over about 12 days and over the past two days it gained 4 minutes.
    the weather here has been colder than the recent past and I have not been in the room heating it.

    so there is some evidence the invar bob is more consistant in time keeping
    relative to temperature.
    Clyde has been a minute slow each day for the past three days.

    victor
     
  4. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    ooooof.

    adding weight will slow it...

    ah well. too late now, I take it off on the morrow.

    victor
     
  5. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    update.

    I did a bunch of things to the invar pendulum clock called clyde.

    early today I noticed clyde was about three minutes fast.
    I didn't really think much of it as I was planning to adjust it later tonight.
    ... 'cept tonight it was about 7 minutes fast. yikes.

    I suspected the clock had a flutter. I considered it good evidence it has one.

    I raised the fork. tested it at 20 minutes after the hour.
    it fluttered.... raised fork again.

    it is running now and I added enough weight to get the time
    of three minute run to 3:00.06

    I left it at that.

    bonnie is about a half minute slow at the moment.

    victor
     
  6. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    #56 victor miranda, Feb 8, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
    question:
    how can a clock that is supposed to do
    10 beats a minute and timed by a stop watch for three minute to 3:00.06.
    lose 5 minutes in one day? it was running when I was returned a day later.

    is something wrong with the clock?

    I admit I may be doing something wrong and I sure ain't seeing it.
    I've done the same with other clocks and had those clocks run close to expected time.

    victor
     
  7. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You need to work the numbers Victor.
    5 minutes a day it one part in 288 or .00347.
    3 / 288 = .0104 minutes or *60 = .625 seconds.
    Most people can accurately time about .25 seconds but not
    everyone.
    Also, it depends on where you are timing the pendulum.
    If you are timing to the end of the swing ( most seem to insist
    that is the best place, I don't know why ) you can add another .3 to .5 seconds of error.
    You want to time it at the center of the swing when it is
    moving at the fastest speed,
    Even at .25 seconds it is still 2 minutes for a 3 minute time span.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  8. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    I time at the escape wheel hitting the exit pallet.

    I kinda did the time calculation going the other way.
    I also did this run over 9 minutes and got similar results.
    .06 sec error over three minutes implies .02 seconds per minute
    60 times 24 ... 1440 minutes?
    so I was thinking .02 seconds 1440 times leads to 28 seconds.

    If we assume I made an error in measuring....
    you think I can miss by as much as a half a second?
    three times?

    other measurements I have had similar timing
    I decided the clock went fast due to flutter...
    so I think I fixed that....

    the lost minutes seem quite strange to me,
    if you feel I am miss timing it I am looking for about one beat...

    hmmmmm
     
  9. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    what happens to the timing/regulation of a 400 day clock when
    the pendulum is swinging very close to the escape ticking?

    I am betting it slows a bit.

    .... I can see individual trees...

    victor
     
  10. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I've timed 400 day clocks with my strobe.
    It has almost perfect repeatability and only a few micro
    seconds of jitter.
    I've not seen any noticeable speed change in the middle of the swings.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  11. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Victor, Since now the clock is losing time you can be assured that flutter is not the problem. What method of tension is used in this clock for minute hand tension? If tension is too light then time can be lost at an unpredictable rate due to slippage. Personally I prefer a little more tension than most probably do.. that way I am assured that there is no slippage. If there is no slippage and no flutter then timing is most accurately measured by simply checking time every 24 hours. Patience is the key to regulation. Yes I use a stop watch after I overhaul a 400 day clock but only until I think I am close then I just make small adjustments every day or so for the first week or 2. When using a stopwatch (my smartphone) I generally try timing my pendulum at the end of a rotation... I have tried Tinkers method but am not sure if it improved my timing.. I am an old dog and new tricks are difficult for me to learn. I think your best method is to slowly either add or remove tiny amounts of weight and then watch for 24 hours or more. Since there are no moving parts to your pendulum I don't think it matters if you are adjusting from slow to fast or fast to slow but tiny steps are the key in my opinion. Patience my friend... patience.
     
  12. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    an update first....

    Clyde stopped running.
    I did some thinkering.
    while I was looking it over the escape wheel stopped.
    ... a lot like a rock in a tooth type of stop.

    I am not sure which wheel.
    I poked at pivots in the hope that I find the problem.
    the arbor next to the escape was my first poke and the clock went to normal.

    I am going to re-visit my cleaning of this clock.

    what I want is for both Tinker Dwight and Harry Hopkins
    to know I have read your posts and expect we will may
    run back over the same territory.

    in either case...
    Tinker Dwight,
    I think my question about pendulums and escape ckicks and time regulation was poorly worded.
    so I am going to see if I can find out why this Clock locked.
    If I still have the time regulation problem, I'll ask my question another way.

    Harry Hopkins,
    I have not adjusted my invar bob all that much... yet.
    I have attempted to balance it more times.

    I timed it, add weight and calculated how much more weight, then added that.
    and I timed it again.

    then I tried my first adjustment?
    which might have been the wrong way...
    and last time I had clear flutter issues.

    which is where we stand now.

    the clock is much the same as your Schatz Barock types.

    victor
     
  13. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    It may be that while looking at it a small hair, such as an eye lid
    hair, fell into the movement.
    It doesn't take much.
    Of course with a 400 day clock, the main spring sticking
    is always a possibility.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  14. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    I have clyde the clock apart at the moment.

    I do not get this. I cleaned it and it ran fine.
    I cleaned it again and it looks like a lack of power.
    more winding did not get me more power.

    I think I'll clean it and also re-visit the mainspring
    and I'll add a new suspension spring... who knows. I am clutching at straws anyway.

    I need better duct-tape for this barnstormer...

    victor
     
  15. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    One thing to watch out for is the position of the motion
    works.
    Without the proper assembly and minute hand, these can jam
    and give the appearance of a power failure.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  16. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    I removed the hands, clock face, counter gear and hour... cannon?

    however.... I'll set them in place and give it a trial.

    I know 400 day clocks are often considered fussy.
    My experience is that they rarely need more than a good cleaning.
    this one went from good to fuss in about two weeks of running...

    now I have to find my suspension spring stash and hope I have a correct size one.

    victor
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Just as a note. If the clock fails to run, it is never ( and I mean never ) the fault of the
    suspension spring.
    It is like saying the engine on your car won't start because it needs new tires.
    Yes, it needs tires to run down the road but that is not the problem of starting the engine.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Hi Tinker Dwight,

    well, I did mention clutching straws.
    I agree with you that the suspension is not likely to be the problem.
    I said it to give y'all a sense of desperation.
    as it is I have done a bunch things to Clyde the clock.
    after reattaching the face and parts I tested the clock
    it seems to have a reasonable amount of power at the escape wheel.

    I could not get the thing to either stay in beat nor stay running.
    so I flipped the suspension spring end for end.
    I decided that because maybe I had tortured or bent the spring between the fork and upper block
    during my attempts to repair.

    I gave up and lowered the fork into flutter range.
    It has been running for 12 hours now.
    it is very close to correct time as of the start of me writing this post.

    I have another post to write with some boring data....
    maybe later today.

    victor
     
  19. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    some data.
    after having done this for the past couple of weeks
    I can see I need a thermometer.

    I am not sure how to present this.
    I can state when the clock started
    and perhaps a day later and then a weekly report?

    like this?
    (I should reiterate Bonnie is the control or normal 400 day clock)
    started Bonnie at 6:30 pm-ish on Jan 31
    Feb 1 says 10:02 pm and time is 10:02 pm
    Feb 12 says 9:55 and the time is 9:56 pm

    the problem is that misses all the fun...
    here are the daily times
    Feb 1 says 10:02 pm and time is 10:02 pm
    Feb 2 says 9:55 pm and time is 9:55 pm
    Feb 3 says 10:42 pm and time is 10:42 pm
    Feb 4 I wrote no times
    Feb 5 says 6:25 pm and time is 7:26 pm (is what I wrote, I use timer that is an hour off.)
    Feb 6 says 8:56 pm and time is 8:56 pm
    Feb 7 says 9:36 pm and time is 9:36 pm
    Feb 8 says 9:40 pm and time is 9:40 pm
    Feb 9 says 9:49 pm and time is 9:49 pm
    Feb 10 says 11:18 and time is 11:17 -- not sure if this is am or pm. I'd bet PM
    Feb 11 says 8:52 pm and time is 8:50 pm
    Feb 12 says 9:55 and the time is 9:56 pm

    this is what I think is ordinary for a 400 day clock....
    I did not keep track of the temperature.

    gotta fix that.

    victor
     
  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    If you watch, you can find the circular temperature recoders
    relatively cheap.
    Old used ones don't have much application so end up on the surplus market.The disk
    paper is not cheap.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    I've been tracking the time performance of
    four clocks right now.
    one of them is a very recent overhaul.

    I decided to cross check my way of timing/regulating
    my clocks

    recent over haul is UF it is losing about 1 minute a day.
    clocks says 5:33 --> time is 5:36
    timed for 3 minutes or 15 pendulum cycles --> 2:59.95

    A clock I have been running for a long time is VBBC
    and I've been adjusting by what the clock says. Gains about 3 min a day.
    clock says 5:48 --> time is 5:43
    timed for 3 min --> 2:59.43

    Bonnie the control clock for this
    says 6:07 --> time is 6:05 average gain is 8 to 10 sec a day
    timed for 3 min or 15 pendulum cycles --> 2:59.78

    and Clyde with invar pendulum
    He has been gaining about 2 minutes a day for the past couple of days.
    clock says 6:23 and the time is 6:18
    timed for 3 min or 15 pendulum cycles --> 2:59.70
    I'll share the rest of the data I get when I run this timing.
    1 11.98 for one cycle
    2 11.97
    3 11.97
    4 11.91
    5 12.02 one minute 59.85
    6 12.03
    7 11.96
    8 11.98
    9 11.95
    10 11.92 two minute 1.59.69
    11 11.98
    12 12.03
    13 11.93
    14 12.09
    15 11.98 three minute 2.59.69
    16 12.00


    what do you think?

    I am going to try to find out a way to stop the flutter?

    victor

    - - - Updated - - -

    Hi Tinker Dwight,

    I will look for such a machine.
    thanks for the direction.

    victor
     
  22. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    earlier today, I ordered more invar from mcmaster-carr.

    I decided to build a smaller pendulum.
    part of why is that I really did not want to be giving my repair skills this thorough a test
    I also felt that If I had a problem clock, I could move the bob to another clock.

    and this evening I get downstairs to find that Clyde quit running at 6:32.
    Is it bad for your teeth to chew brass?

    and I ordered a temperature recorder that down loads to a computer.

    victor
     
  23. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Yes Victor I think it is bad for your teeth to chew brass.. In the past I also learned that it was bad for my head to beat it against a block wall when I was frustrated with a clock.

    Do I understand correctly that you are building the new invar pendulum to use on a different (more reliable?) clock? Have you thought about putting the original pendulum on Clyde to see if he runs stronger?

    In my experience I have found that some miniature clocks can be a little more fussy than standard sized clocks. I am currently working on a miniature Kundo that lost power for no apparent reason after running well for a few years.
     
  24. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Hi Harry Hopkins,

    I'll do explanations later in the post...

    Yes I am going to make another pendulum from the invar I ordered.
    I expect I will be able to make three from this and the left over
    of the first one.

    yes I will try to make or use a more reliable clock.
    for the new invar bob.

    Bonnie was my intention for this when I bid on her from the bay.
    the clock that arrived was enough nice that I went to find another.
    on a bit of over sharing I am stupid for mademoiselle clocks....
    ... plans change. :-D the bob also came out a bit bigger than I had planned.
    a slightly smaller bob would fit most other schatz 53 types.

    so I painted myself into a corner.

    this next part is some combo of my temperament and ego.
    I am often patient and I am usually willing to re-visit a clock.
    here is where my ego kicks in --> after a few rounds I usually find the power eaters.
    In this case I have created a particular clock that I need to get going. quickly.

    To do the "Does invar get accuracy?" test I was planning,
    I kinda need a clock that works.

    It is time to check the "I can repair ANY Clock" ego at the door.

    A normal bob may make a difference, and there are the usual suspects
    If I could do any one thing, I'd add more power because that is the easiest.
    mind you, I did a bunch of things to the franken-clock called Clyde.
    I didn't share them because it is boring.
    I made sure the escape wheel is even and I straightened the pivot on the center arbor.
    the mainspring was... serviced. (I plan to revisit this one.)
    I tried a lot of different heights for the verge.
    and the only real difference to performance seemed to be to lower the fork.
    ummmm....

    I am frustrated. I also know I can go over it again looking for anything I missed.
    I expect I'll set about polishing ALL the gears as well as putting more shine on the pivots.
    that will take time. I'd prefer to have the bob swinging during that time.

    miniature 400 day clock are problems because they are
    close to tolerance limits for power.
    a wound spring power delivery is never even.
    good news! it appears the clock will keep good time anyway.
    bad news. If the output drops below needs to run the clock... it stops.

    the difference between those two, power to run and not run,
    sure ain't a wide gap.

    Efficiency has its drawbacks.

    I expect I'll try ole Clyde again
    'cause a new bob is going to be a few weeks out, no matter what.

    victor
     
  25. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    howdy forumers,

    and now for something I hope you'll really like!

    I have a digital temperature recorder. it is on the shelf with bonnie and clyde.

    I did some tinkering with clyde and I think I have the flutter problem...
    plucked? I can't think of anything else I can to to prevent it.
    pushing the minute hand rarely gets a flutter. etc.

    after Clyde ran for a day I decided to hang a little more weight on 'im
    and after a day he looks to have gained about a half a minute.
    once I get a few more days of a consistant time, I'll adjust.

    I have the new invar so I will be starting on a new bob.
    All my 'spare' clocks need blocks and forks...
    (Where do you think Clyde's set came from?)
    so I have started by making a few sets from brass.

    I've been thinking about how I can do this comparison run.
    I think 400 day clocks speed up in cold and slow in warm.
    Bonnie is the 'ordinary' clock. how would you like the data presented?
    is weekly a good interval?

    I am thinking I should not touch the regulation and only adjust the time on the dial
    if it is off by more than say 10 minutes?

    victor
     
  26. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'd think a daily log would be best. It can be a random times but
    you just note the reference time and the time read on the clock being
    tested. It need not be at the exact time each day.
    It is undesirable to change the hands. Try to keep 24 hour time.
    When logging, you don't do any calculations, you just write the numbers
    down. Later, processing the data is when you do calculations.
    For the temperature, you try to keep the average temperature during readings.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  27. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    the logistics on that may be a problem...

    daily I may be able to do for the clock times.
    the temp recorder I would have to bring up stairs, dump and take back down.

    not how my day usually goes.
    I am headed to bed from this post, back downstairs will create problems...

    I'll give this some thought.

    victor
     
  28. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    #78 victor miranda, Feb 26, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
    I have been tinkering with the temperature recorder

    It does some things I can't get sorted out
    I know I am starting it at about 10 ish pm and it says it is 3:30am....
    It records the temp every 10 minutes or 144 recording points (ETA: per day.)
    on days I do the dump there will be a few recording point skipped.

    I am trying to co-ordinate the recorder to a day of timing

    most days I record my clocks at around 10 pm

    here are the notes for bonnie
    clyde is running for about 3 days and I am not confident.
    bonnie started and stayed running from Jan 31
    I have not regulated her from when I started her

    last report was the 12th
    here is bonnie to date.
    Feb 13 bonnie says 8:56 pm time is 8:54
    Feb 14 bonnie says 10:14 pm time is 10:12
    Feb 15 bonnie says 11:05 pm time is 11:01
    Feb 16 bonnie says 9:42 pm time is 9:37 ( wrote 10:37 )
    Feb 17 bonnie says 9:36 pm time is 9:31
    Feb 18 bonnie says 10:00 pm time is 9:54
    Feb 19 bonnie says 11:54 pm time is 11:46
    Feb 20 bonnie says 9:44 pm time is 9:36
    Feb 21 bonnie says 11:01 pm time is 10:53
    Feb 22 bonnie says 10:33 pm time is 10:24
    Feb 23 bonnie says 10:03 pm time is 9:53
    Feb 24 bonnie says 12:15 am time is 12:04 am (the 25th)
    Feb 25 bonnie says 10:04 pm time is 9:52

    and the average temps
    start time of day temp average
    1 02/18/2017 04:00:27 71.9 66.17
    142 02/19/2017 03:30:27 68.3 65.87
    1 02/20/2017 03:30:30 70.7 67.25
    145 02/21/2017 03:30:30 67.4 64.86
    289 02/22/2017 03:30:30 64 64.9
    2 02/23/2017 03:30:45 70.8 66.39
    146 02/24/2017 03:30:45 69.6 66.87
    290 02/25/2017 03:30:45 66.3 67.24

    and combined.
    start time of day average
    Feb 17 bonnie says 9:36 pm time is 9:31
    1 02/18/2017 04:00:27 66.17
    Feb 18 bonnie says 10:00 pm time is 9:54
    142 02/19/2017 03:30:27 65.87
    Feb 19 bonnie says 11:54 pm time is 11:46
    1 02/20/2017 03:30:30 67.25
    Feb 20 bonnie says 9:44 pm time is 9:36
    145 02/21/2017 03:30:30 64.86
    Feb 21 bonnie says 11:01 pm time is 10:53
    289 02/22/2017 03:30:30 64.9
    Feb 22 bonnie says 10:33 pm time is 10:24
    2 02/23/2017 03:30:45 66.39
    Feb 23 bonnie says 10:03 pm time is 9:53
    146 02/24/2017 03:30:45 66.87
    Feb 24 bonnie says 12:15 am time is 12:04 am (the 25th)
    290 02/25/2017 03:30:45 67.24
    Feb 25 bonnie says 10:04 pm time is 9:52

    does that make sense?
    victor
     
  29. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    You need to plot it out now to see how it does, with
    temperature and going.
    You might try moving it into a cold garage and see the difference.
    Feb 18-19 had a larger than normal jump.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  30. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    been puzzling about this quest...
    using Bonnie data to explain, I have to find a way to determine
    If the clock is in good order

    the clock bonnie started off as gaining between a quarter to a half minute a day
    and then went to a minute or more a day.

    I am thinking the clock is doing a flutter for a few clicks a couple of times a day.
    my only evidence is the lack of consistency for bonnie's timekeeping.

    is that enough?

    should I be looking for anything else?
     
  31. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Yes. Any flutter will advance the hands.
    If you are able to see it flutter then you will observe what happens when it does this.
    You'll need to observe very carefully for this is not much adjustment in this case if indeed it is the case.
    Raising the fork a bit should possibly do it but if the pin has been bent at any time it could cause all sorts of headaches.
     
  32. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
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    Hello Victor, In my opinion I don't think you can attribute a minute a day to flutter. I think if the fork setting was low enough to make it susceptible to fluttering it would do it more often than what you are seeing and the timekeeping would be more erratic.
     
  33. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    It is true that flutter would occur more often and when it does, it usually advances the hand several minutes rather than one. The lack of consistent error does cause one to wonder though.

    I haven't read this whole thread but if you are down to the escapement issues then I may assume that everything else has been repaired?
     
  34. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Hi Roughbarked,

    my ego states clearly: "I (the very important I ) have FIXED it.
    Who are your to Question the all powerful and wonderful I?"
    the rest of me is laughing...

    I have fixed 400 day clocks on an irregular basis for many years.
    Frankly anything that makes me better at that is is my idea of good.

    I have taken a couple of runs at fixing the invar pendulum clock called clyde
    and.... it seems steady... well, more steady than it was, and after today's time check
    I'll know better. For now, lets say that I think clyde is more steady than bonnie.

    Bonnie was an easy clock. I got it as a parts clock from the bay. It is/was in good condition.
    I added a new suspension spring and it seemed to run quite well.
    I did clean it and oiled the pivots and the escape wheel/pallets.
    I did not visit the mainspting other than to add a few drips of oil.

    In general I tend to setting the fork lower than the horolovar book says
    and I tend to set the verge into the escape wheel deeper than what I have been
    told and read is proper placement. I like the wheel to definitely catch above the impulse face.
    I also tend to have the fork clearance allow a biz card in there.

    and I have been known to yell at stopped clocks...

    all that said, I busted clyde fluttering and it added not even a minute
    If the "clicktic,tic,tic,tic,tic" I remember hearing is correct.
    I've not caught Bonnie fluttering.

    Right now, because of your earlier post, I am planning to raise Bonnie's fork.
    ...I know she may come to a halt.

    As it is, I may have found one of the reasons my 400 day clocks are sometimes erratic.
    I am having that exact problem with yet another clock called U.F.
    with him, I raised the fork... and he ... quits. lower fork a little and weeeeell,
    last seen, he was running...

    all the clocks I've mentioned in this thread are schatz 53 variants.

    I have a few, so spare parts are available.
    I got a couple extras to hold a second invar bob.

    so far the first hurdle to getting a 400 day clock to within a minute a year is:
    get it to run properly...


    I have ordered more silk and airplane dope for the barnstormer
    this time for shure!
     
  35. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Hi Harry Hopkins,

    I think I have the clock well set and I have never seen it flutter.
    I was wondering what else I may be missing. because the clock is not steady on gain.

    I can adjust the bob for the minute a day. and I was trying to decide the adjustment.
    it is adding about 1.5 to 2 minutes a day now and the average temp shift is not wild.
    my temp recorder says from 62 to 70 degrees.
    the gain is does not have an average temp gain to explain it.

    do suspension springs settle in after a few weeks or a month and one should expect to
    revisit the fork height and time regulation?

    For Bonnie with a new spring, that could explain the situation.
    Clyde has an old spring however... (the one that came with Bonnie.)

    victor
     
  36. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Your resolution is only 1 minute so it might all just be measurement errors.
    Also, where around the dial you measure can make a 1 minute error.
    As a recommendation, put a tape mark on the dial with a wedge shaped pointer.
    Point it towards that center of the dial.
    This will allow you to measure quite accurately when the minute hand crosses
    the pie wedge by how much you see on each side of the hand.
    Move as far back from the clock as you can to measure ( if you have a small spotting
    'scope on a tripod would be best ).
    Always measure at the same time of the hour.
    Use a reference clock with a second hand.
    record the reference clock time as the hand crosses the tape and not when the reference
    clock is on the minute.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  37. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    #87 victor miranda, Feb 28, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2017
    Hi Tinker Dwight,

    you have a knack for writing posts that push me to admit to aspects of my character I'd prefer to hide.

    I know I can be more accurate in my timing of the clocks.
    I an unlikely to set up such a rig on a clock without a strong reason.
    A more practical issue is far more of a problem.
    I am not a consistent person in my day to day activities
    I may still have my job because I am flexible on the matter and
    my work does not always allow me to leave at a consistent time.
    the missing Feb 4th time may a good example of what can happen.

    I can add the seconds from my timer/stopwatch.
    that may help with assessing the overall timing shifts of the Bonnie clock in particular.
    the other clocks may be easier to track as a bonus.
    ETA I'll also try to record the time on the 9 side of the clocks.

    More of a problem is that I do not see Bonnie's performance as even.
    for 12 days it was quite close to no real gain or loss of time.
    after that....

    I expect I'll raise the fork a little on the morrow.

    victor
     
  38. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    previous report --> Feb 25 bonnie says 10:04 pm time is 9:52

    I worked on Clyde on Feb 26, a small weight removal.
    He seemed stable over the previous few days. I did not note a time adjustment.
    Am not sure why the apparent minute slow start.

    Feb 26 bonnie says 9:55 pm time is 9:42
    Feb 26 clyde says 9:42 pm time is 9:43
    Feb 27 bonnie says 10:11 pm time is 9:58
    Feb 27 clyde says 9:57 pm time is 9:58
    Feb 28 bonnie says 10:58 pm time is 10:43.45
    Feb 28 clyde says 10:43 pm time is 10:44.15

    Mar 1 bonnie says 10:53 pm time is 10:36.46
    Mar 1 clyde says 10:35 pm time is 10:37.22
    Mar 2 bonnie says 10:54 pm time is 10:37.55
    Mar 2 clyde says 10:36 pm time is 10:38.23
    Mar 3 bonnie says 12:07 am time is 11:49.45
    Mar 3 clyde says 11:49 pm time is 11:50.35

    On Bonnie:
    I did the fork lift Mar 4 and I also had to change the regulation
    I did not record the stop time, I'll try to do that from now on.
    think of the next time record as the start time.

    Mar 4 bonnie says 9:31 am time is 9:31.41
    Mar 4 clyde says 9:30 pm time is 9:32.16

    Temp logging summary for the week
    highest 74.6, lowest 63.5, average 66.1, and mkt 66.2

    id date temp average
    3 -- 02/26/2017 03:28:15 71 68.99
    147 02/27/2017 03:28:15 69.9 65.87
    292 02/28/2017 03:38:15 64.9 65.09
    436 03/01/2017 03:38:15 64.9 64.95
    580 03/02/2017 03:38:15 64.7 64.60
    724 03/03/2017 03:38:15 64.9 66.71
    868 03/04/2017 03:38:15 66.2 66.68

    combined...
    3 02/26/2017 03:28:15 71 avg temp --> 68.99
    Feb 26 bonnie says 9:55 pm time is 9:42
    Feb 26 clyde says 9:42 pm time is 9:43
    147 02/27/2017 03:28:15 69.9 avg temp -->65.87
    Feb 27 bonnie says 10:11 pm time is 9:58
    Feb 27 clyde says 9:57 pm time is 9:58
    292 02/28/2017 03:38:15 64.9 avg temp -->65.09
    Feb 28 bonnie says 10:58 pm time is 10:43.45
    Feb 28 clyde says 10:43 pm time is 10:44.15
    436 03/01/2017 03:38:15 64.9 avg temp --> 64.95
    Mar 1 bonnie says 10:53 pm time is 10:36.46
    Mar 1 clyde says 10:35 pm time is 10:37.22
    580 03/02/2017 03:38:15 64.7 avg temp --> 64.60
    Mar 2 bonnie says 10:54 pm time is 10:37.55
    Mar 2 clyde says 10:36 pm time is 10:38.23
    724 03/03/2017 03:38:15 64.9 avg temp --> 66.71
    Mar 3 bonnie says 12:07 am time is 11:49.45
    Mar 3 clyde says 11:49 pm time is 11:50.35
    868 03/04/2017 03:38:15 66.2 avg temp --> 66.68
    Mar 4 bonnie says 9:31 am time is 9:31.41
    Mar 4 clyde says 9:30 pm time is 9:32.16
     
  39. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    report from March 5 to March 11

    Temp logging summary for the week mar 5 to mar 11
    Highest 69.8°F, Lowest 62.0°F, Average 65.2°F, MKT 65.3°F

    Mar 5 bonnie says 9:32 pm time is 9:32.20
    Mar 5 clyde says 9:31 pm time is 9:32.51
    Mar 6 bonnie says 8:54 pm time is 8:53.35
    Mar 6 clyde says 8:53 pm time is 8:54.16
    Mar 7 bonnie says 10:47 pm time is 10:45.23
    Mar 7 clyde says 10:44 pm time is 10:45.45
    Mar 8 bonnie says 11:15 pm time is 11:13.32
    Mar 8 clyde says 11:12 pm time is 11:13.54
    Mar 9 bonnie says 10:37 pm time is 10:35.08
    Mar 9 clyde says 1:35 pm time is 10:35.29
    Mar 10 -- not recorded
    Mar 11 bonnie says 9:53 pm time is 9:48.52
    Mar 11 clyde says 9:50 pm time is 9:48.08

    8 03/05/2017 03:05:41 69.8 avg temp --> 66.75
    152 03/06/2017 03:05:41 69 avg temp --> 64.32
    296 03/07/2017 03:05:41 63.6 avg temp --> 63.87
    440 03/08/2017 03:05:41 64 avg temp --> 65.01
    584 03/09/2017 03:05:41 64.5 avg temp --> 65.28
    728 03/10/2017 03:05:41 66.5 avg temp --> 65.03
    872 03/11/2017 03:05:41 66.7 avg temp --> 66.1

    combined...

    8 03/05/2017 03:05:41 69.8 avg temp --> 66.75
    Mar 5 bonnie says 9:32 pm time is 9:32.20 gain/diff--> 0/0
    Mar 5 clyde says 9:31 pm time is 9:32.51 gain/diff--> +1/-1.5
    152 03/06/2017 03:05:41 69 avg temp --> 64.32
    Mar 6 bonnie says 8:54 pm time is 8:53.35 gain/diff--> 0/0
    Mar 6 clyde says 8:53 pm time is 8:54.16 gain/diff--> 0/-1
    296 03/07/2017 03:05:41 63.6 avg temp --> 63.87
    Mar 7 bonnie says 10:47 pm time is 10:45.23 gain/diff--> +2/+2
    Mar 7 clyde says 10:44 pm time is 10:45.45 gain/diff--> 0/-1
    440 03/08/2017 03:05:41 64 avg temp --> 65.01
    Mar 8 bonnie says 11:15 pm time is 11:13.32 gain/diff--> 0/+2
    Mar 8 clyde says 11:12 pm time is 11:13.54 gain/diff--> 0/-1
    584 03/09/2017 03:05:41 64.5 avg temp --> 65.28
    Mar 9 bonnie says 10:37 pm time is 10:35.08 gain/diff--> 0/+2
    Mar 9 clyde says 1:35 pm time is 10:35.29 gain/diff--> +1/0
    728 03/10/2017 03:05:41 66.5 avg temp --> 65.03
    Mar 10 -- not recorded
    872 03/11/2017 03:05:41 66.7 avg temp --> 66.1
    Mar 11 bonnie says 9:53 pm time is 9:48.52 gain/diff--> +2/+4
    Mar 11 clyde says 9:50 pm time is 9:48.08 gain/diff--> +2/+2
     
  40. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    .... life...
    I am attempting to get this quest a little further down the road.

    I have found that I can't cut thread onto an invar rod.
    am trying to make 5-40. this is a machining problem.
    I suppose I can use a lathe, I was hoping to cut it with a die.

    I am going to start bonnie and clyde and see how they run in a warm basement.

    more news If there ever is any.

    victor
     
  41. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    forumers,
    I have attempted to remove the apparent flutter from both clocks Bonnie and Clyde.
    they have kept time close to the timing I made of the pendulums.

    so tonight I regulated them to as close to 12 seconds as my stopwatch,eye, and reflexes could get them.
    each clock was timed over a 6 minute run.
    I expect them to be well under a minute a day. If they run faster, I'll assume I still have a flutter.
    ... they have never run slower than I expected, so I am looking forward to that problem.

    victor
     
  42. roughbarked

    roughbarked Registered User

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    Perhaps they love you and flutter their eyes at you when you pass close by?
     
  43. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    ... I lovely wife calls my ...other... madmoiselle..
    my Big Girl.

    :-D we will see.

    thanks roughbarked.
     
  44. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Forumers,

    I have let the two clocks that are in this test go 5 days of running.
    they seem to each stay at close to their expected times
    Bonnie goes a little less than a minute a day fast and Clyde is the reverse
    a little less than a minute a day slow.

    I adjusted them. once I get each to less than a minute a week, I'll let them run
    and see If temperature affects the rate of the invar pendulum.

    victor
     
  45. Berry Greene

    Berry Greene Registered User

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    Am I missing something here? Surely a stopped clock has some accuracy. It is an average of what it is against what it should be! Then there is the business of instability. How do you cover that? The clock that runs wildly out by June but is spot on again by Xmas. OK I'll shut up!
     
  46. victor miranda

    victor miranda Registered User
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    Hi Berry Greene,

    To summarize the events of this thread....
    I set out of a quest to get an ordinary 400 day clock to a minute a year.
    two similar clocks were set up.
    one 'normal' called bonnie and one with an invar metal pendulum called Clyde.
    I have a temperature recorder standing with the clocks.

    so far the results are:
    the two clock have demonstrated that I am not as good at repairing 400 day clocks as I thought.
    Bonnie is reasonably reliable ... ahem ... now and is under a minute a week slow.

    Clyde has been a handful, and while may be close to a minute a week
    he has done a lot of stalling and fluttering.
    This may be a case of be more careful what clock you chose for such an experiment.
    If the Invar bob works, it will prove the 'ordinary' part.

    My life and various frustrations keep me from tinkering with Clyde on some days and weeks and months.

    so far, I see that Clyde holds its time better over temperature changes somewhat better than Bonnie and
    I have not enough evidence of this being true for me to state I know it is true.

    right now the testing is at get the clock running reliably...
    victor
     
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