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The mysterious weight clock

Yahagi

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I need help identifying such a clock.
A friend recently bought it and we are trying to establish its origins.
There are voices that it could be JungHans Livingstone.
I think it will be a different producer.

Does anyone recognize such a mechanism? Any insights will be very valuable
:)

IMG_20211112_170125.png.1741b87d3d1b0864b5b459b9b01057da.png IMG_20211112_170426.png.21735513ef72db8b6126932025d17505.png IMG_20211112_170640.png.4c9029d293d231f113a8ddb8ccd5c1d9.png IMG_20211112_170712.png.351b55c25b542484307d697feaa4c9c2.png IMG_20211128_174709.jpg.5a6f60d81ec85ce834606d45a5889ac1.jpg IMG_20211128_174831.jpg.094038998b23682199c84c2bac8d452b.jpg IMG_20211128_174955.jpg.aa0da51bdb4bd5a769972839a8d67bc9.jpg IMG_20211128_175054.jpg.34d548d338f0b0f3ecc1a741dcbc89bf.jpg IMG_20211128_175632.jpg.d962adf37d168101e776ceb2c618e984.jpg IMG_20211128_181427.jpg.7ea07c235f8d15cffeffca66cde4d105.jpg IMG_20211128_181548.jpg.e91822be48f607e84707f5a4c77f0017.jpg IMG_20211128_212053.jpg.9b3237b5629c16442152794e6c5978b0.jpg
 

Ticktocktime100

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Hi,

I can’t rid myself of the impression that this clock is an Asian reproduction made around a century after the German original, around 1970-1980. The arrows on the dial indicating the winding method is a rather tell-tale sign in my experience. Furthermore, the parts and movement look deliberately aged to me, and the case quite “fresh”. Furthermore, the hinges appear to be held by philips head screws, unless I am mistaken, indicating a modern product. Perhaps I am wrong, I wonder what others think.

Regards.
 
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Tim Orr

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Good evening, Yahagi!

I have a similar nagging feeling to that of TTT100. Those winding direction marks struck me immediately. Also, hexagonal nuts holding the front plate. And, that strap for the verge seems stamped out. I can't see the door hinge screws that well. Your "wide shot" photos seem kind of soft-focus for the most part.

Wondering what is that ornament on the end of the chime coil? And why is it there? Looks almost like a pocket watch crown. How deeply does that beat adjuster pin fit into the pendulum? Looks from the photo like the answer is "barely." Those weight securement hooks seem odd too. Why not just tie off the cords to the movement somewhere? This way, you have to disconnect the weights before removing the movement from the case.

All the scarring around the hex nuts and the damage to the slots on the screws holding the verge makes it look as though this clock has been torn apart many, many times and reassembled without a lot of care.

I am no expert, but something doesn't seem quite right. Nor do I have an overall impression of high quality.

Best regards!

Tim Orr
 

Chris Radano

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The movement plates are similar in appearance to the large Connecticut clock factories. New Haven used the arch shape within some of their movement plates.



So it is an American style movement. But weight driven, cast plates, and between the plates dead beat escapement? I have no idea who made it, but it is interesting.

EDIT: I tend to think it is of Black Forest manufacture.
 
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Steven Thornberry

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Just FWIW, I think that neither directional arrows for the winding arbors nor hexagonal nuts holding the front plate are conclusive for calling this clock of oriental manufacture. Consider, for example, this post from our HAC/HAU thread. Both arrows and hexagonal nuts are present. Note also that the clock movement has another example of New Haven style crossbars, different, however from the cross bars on Yahagi's clock. All that said, I'm not suggesting that Yahagi's clock is by HAC/HAU.
 
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Yahagi

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Thank you for any insights.

I don't think this clock is of Asian origin. I've never seen anything like it. I will try to get more detailed photos to show if there are cross screws there. It would be very valuable.

I once had a JungHans Frisia clock (1880) which was typically American design. It was a spring drive. It had winding direction arrows. When I see these on the clock, I wonder if it won't be JungHans or HAC / HAU.

The weight shown by some is considered the JungHans Livingstone model. Maybe it is, although the clock is slightly different from what is shown in the directory.

The problem is that I have never seen 'old' JungHans by weight. I don't know what this mechanism should look like. Maybe it's him?


This one appears to be "American", although the escapement arm and anchor are more European. So it doesn't look quite American, but not European either. I have no idea who would produce one in the Black Forest.

On the Polish forum, a friend found a spring mechanism that looks quite similar. As if it was the same producer.


Maybe someone else will notice something ...

Junghans Farbkatalog USA 1880 24.jpg mech.jpg 64231204_2476805839036121_7761400920604147712_n.jpg 64627071_2476805499036155_7099776653357744128_n.jpg 32(1).thumb.jpg.3b115ac938a776b45faaaae15891fb97.jpg IMG_20211122_184721.thumb.png.e4e88322460c7d74d2b95bb30ddd4a98.png IMG_20211122_184825.thumb.png.34f1d8f962a92fe35814fb5c0b2aa81a.png IMG_20211122_184959.thumb.png.819e52c37a27345bad7ba4a2c0709143.png
 
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Yahagi

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I got a few more photos of this weight clock. The chest does not look modern. I pay attention to the screws:

IMG_20211201_113247.thumb.jpg.b635ad1f377b3ece32dc30bbd89a1741.jpg IMG_20211201_113848.thumb.jpg.f1f578411426cebb0e229d74c2294d56.jpg IMG_20211201_114236.thumb.jpg.3eb11711be3326e2c2db8a487d3c99ba.jpg IMG_20211201_114631.thumb.jpg.a376bc13714d30a6ba458191065ae259.jpg
 

Ticktocktime100

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Hi,

Good information you have there. Based on your findings, the clock may indeed be American - rather unusual. Based on the additional photographs, the flathead screws still don't look particularly old to me, and I doubt the finish is original but again I may be wrong. The clock was likely reworked at some time.

Regards.
 
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Tim Orr

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Good afternoon, Yahagi!

I think it's interesting that both of the winding arbors in your clock are marked to turn clockwise. That is something I've never ever seen before. Usually, they're either unmarked or opposite-marked. The clicks indicate that is actually the way they wind, but it's odd to see that kind of marking.

Best regards!

Tim
 
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Betzel

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Agreeing with Steven, on my wall is a 1930ish box clock. It's a French case with everything else made by Junghans, likely an export "kit" to raise money after the great war. It has hexagonal nuts on the plates as well as the clamps under the seatboard, and those silly arrows that tell you which way to turn the key. Mine go CCW which seems to need to be explained. I think Tim's point is interesting.

I like this clock. Very clean, almost modern looking somehow. Looking at the movement, I understand leaning American, but the escapement is too nice. How does the cord attach to the arbors, is it like a longcase on a spool? The hands are fabulous, but seem half of a hair too long, and how often do you see a (finial/dongle) at the end of a steel gong? For me, never. The strike hammer looks Parisienne, but that could be a repair. What does the gong sound like when hit with (what looks to me like) a hammer meant for a bell? Don't most gong hammers use leather pads?

The anchor bridge. Most German screws I've seen (not millions, but more than a few) use a heavy flat cylindrical head slotted with pride and very nicely blued, a lot like French Empire screws. They are both soft enough to chew, but you really have to want to kill them. Maybe they were replaced with these soft roundheads when someone lost the originals?

Any plywood on the door? Are the hinges and screws solid brass? Very mysterious...
 
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Yahagi

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Welcome..

Many thanks for your constructive insights. I also do not know what to think about this clock.
I agree that the little arrows on a clock face usually point in different directions. Like this one - I haven't seen it yet. It surprised me too.

The chest was refurbished, not very professionally. This is a little conspicuous.

I showed a very similar spring mechanism. The hammer is the same there, so it is probably no coincidence that it has this shape. The fact that there are 2 the same hammers does not really change anything, because I still do not know who to associate these mechanisms with.
Europe does not really want to admit to them, and neither does America :)
End of the chime - I also see it for the first time.
Clock hands - they may actually be a bit too long.
Anchor inside - I do not know if anyone in America did it, I do not recognize clocks from the USA.

I was hoping that someone overseas would recognize and tell ... it's a producer (here's the name). And at the moment it is not even known which way of the world to look :)

Again, many thanks for any insights.
regards
 

Yahagi

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Even such a flashed one years ago on the Polish discussion forum. Some similarities to Lenzkirch were noted.

In that case, it's a little easier for me to believe it's Livingstone.

IMG_20211203_013223.jpg.69cbc2e008182d4ec1ec2291685cc40a.jpg IMG_20211203_013244.jpg.c0c2b5b40ad4c589abf6ecd62a4ce4fb.jpg IMG_20211203_013332.jpg.5c8b3290f815f99c767ddb54c0bc6ad9.jpg
 

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