The five "best" Hamiltons?

[Surf Monkey]

As I consider building up a little collection of Hamiltons, I wonder what five you all might consider a good representative sampling.

My current notion is to shoot for this lineup:

940
974
992 (I already own one of these in the model 2 configuration)
950
4992B

My interest is generally focused on pre-1925 watches, so that's why the B series 992 and 950 don't show up on the list, but that also makes the 4992B an anomaly. The 16 jewel 974 might not logically fit on this list either, but I really like the examples of that grade I've seen, so for now it's there.

Thoughts?

 

[Robert Sweet]

"Best" is what respect? What size movements? Some came factory cased, others not. Some adjusted to 6 positions, others 5 and 3, and others not at all.

IMHO, your question needs to be better defined.

Robert

 

[Fred Hansen]

Robert is correct that there is no "right" answer to what makes a best "representative collection" without setting some guiding criteria.

But even with some criteria, who wants to stick to just 5 watches?

So in the absence of any criteria except pre-1925 and expanding on the list of 5 grades you mentioned, here are some other watches that make nice choices for a small Hamilton collection ...


Grade 936 - The first 17 jewel open face railroad grade, but produced in large enough numbers that nice ones are easy to find and reasonably priced. Depending on your preferences you could go with either a high or low serial number.

Grade 938 - Top quality 18 size 17 jewel grade. Beautiful watches.

Grade 946 - 23 jewel 18 size grade and one of Hamilton's most beautiful damaskeen patterns. Look for a nice problem free example.

Grade 954 - 17 jewel 16 size open face 5 position grade with a very attractive fancy damaskeen and cased in Hamilton signed cases.

Grade 960 - 21 jewel 16 size bridge model. Terrific high grade watches, but not as scarce as others in the 960's series.

Grade 990 - 21 jewel 16 size lever-set with nice fancy damaskeen pattern, very pretty watch.

Grade 996 - 19 jewel 16 size with a beautiful fancy damaskeen pattern and jeweled barrel.

Grade 900 - 19 jewel 12 size with a beautiful fishscale damaskeen pattern.

Fred

p.s. If you haven't yet, I recommend purchasing the "Lasser's List" book on Hamiltons. This is available from the NAWCC bookstore ... http://www.nawccstore.org/ViewProduct.asp?ModelNumber=lasser-1 ... and will give you a nice concise overview of each grade with production figures and pictures. In general it is always worth having good books for your library on what you collect, the small cost of the book is usually quickly recovered in improving your buying decisions.

p.p.s. For some more great Hamilton info and pics, check out this site ... http://www.rrstd.com/rrstd/RRSTD_Home.html

 

[Rhett Lucke]

As Robert and Fred have indicated, the list will certainly vary depending on how each individual defines "best"

Having said that, I'll throw in a couple top 5 lists based on two different criteria.

If one is looking for a group of 5 watches which "best" represents Hamilton's pre 1925 production, my top five might look like this

924
936
940
992
974

If one is looking for a group of watches which defines Hamilton's "best" pre 1925 quality, my top 5 would look something like:

938/939
942/943
946/947
950/951
994

 

[Dr. Jon]

If you are looking for the best value, the deepest sleepers, they are:

1) 920 A 12 size called the Masterpiece of Masterpieces the most expensive watch in the Hamilton Line gold 920 cost more than gold 950's at the time;
2) 985 A gorgeous but scarce 19 jewel 0 size bridge movement;
3) 992B A 16 size,common but a great timekeeper, one the best ever. There are enough that you can get very fine example;
4) 923 A 10 Size 23 jewel bridge model with a jeweled mainspring barrel. So well made they had no serial numbers showing that Hamilton had achieved full interchangeability;
5) 400 A 12 size, Hamilton added a micrometer regulator to the Illini after they bought the Illinois Watch Company.

If you want to step out of the box the model 21 Chronometer was an unparalleled triumph. Nothing made by anyone else came close. They made a lot of them so they are not too pricey and a steal for what they are. The model 22 is also a fabulous achievement, in either the large watch or box mount. These are too large to be pocket watches.

Since the title is best Hamiltons, I also suggest the 982M wrist watch but that too is not an American Pocket watch.

 

[andrew66]

In my personal opinion are:

1) Early 16 size grade 962

2) 16 size grade 951

3) 18 size grade 947 marked "extra"

4) 18 size early run grade 936

5) 18 size grade 936-937 marked "Cheasapeake & Ohio Raliway Special"

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Jon, you know that I have enormous respect for your erudition, and your Hamilton suggestions are impeccable except possibly in one very minor respect. You write that Hamilton 923s did not need serial numbers because of interchangeable part precision, and did not have them. I cannot speak for all Hamilton 923s, of course, but the two in my collection do have serial numbers, R951 and R2211, as shown in the photo below of the latter. Perhaps later 923s did not have serial numbers.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Ethan, you are probaby right about this, I should have checked. I think I have one without a serial number and I'll have to check when I can lay hands on it.

This does seem to be a pretty 16 size favoring thread doesn't it?

 

[Surf Monkey]

This does seem to be a pretty 16 size favoring thread doesn't it?

Sure seems that way. And from my POV that's fine, because my primary interest is in the railroad standard models. 16 and 18s are likely to remain the focus of my small sampling, but it's genuinely fascinating to see what people pick as representative, even (or especially) when some fall outside of the railroad specification.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Not much point in arguing over taste but 10 and 12 size Hamiltons are a terrific buy and are superb quality items.

I did get it wrong about 923, I believe it was the 945 Masterpiece model which did not have serial numbers. This too is a jeweled barrel 23 Jewel movement but with a elinvar balance spring. This too is a lovely, high quality watch especially as affordable as they are.

 

[Surf Monkey]

If you want to step out of the box the model 21 Chronometer was an unparalleled triumph. Nothing made by anyone else came close. They made a lot of them so they are not too pricey and a steal for what they are. The model 22 is also a fabulous achievement, in either the large watch or box mount. These are too large to be pocket watches.

My jeweler has one of these on display in his shop. It's an awesome instrument.

 

[Larry Treiman]

Dr. Jon, since you brought up the 10-size Hamiltons, I have a few additional comments on these watches. All the 10-size movements were fitted from the beginning with the original Swiss blued Elinvar hairsprings and mono-metallic balances (917 and 921 in 1936 and the 923 in 1937). During the 1940's they received the far-superior Elinvar Extra as war-time needs lessened and it became available.

The 923 was discontinued c.1949 and was replaced in 1950 with the 945. Unlike the 923 and 921, with their three separate bridges or cocks for the escape, 4th and 3rd wheels, the 945 was made with the simpler 3/4-plate design of the 917, and like the 917, it lacked the micrometer regulator. It still had the same 23 jewels and was adjusted to 5 positions. In appearance, though, it looks pretty much like the 917, IMHO.

The 917 was eventually replaced by a 17-jewel Swiss Cortebert 17-ligne movement (Hamilton grade 699), but the 945 continued to be available until the late 1960's. As you pointed out, it had no serial number. To the best of my knowledge, the other 10-size grades had serial numbers until they were discontinued, though I am not positive.

Larry Treiman

 

[LTaupier]

This is a great thread guys. It's exactly what I'm collecting now. When i first started collecting pocket watches I started with old keywind Waltham, Hampden and Elgin models. That was a lot of fun and I still look for reasonably priced Civil War and 1870/80 models. But in the last three months I discovered, through this board, the beauty of collecting the Hamilton RR watch. I'm not to the point of collecting the very rare and unusual pieces as some of you old timers are. But I'm collecting what I consider the best condition examples of the most popular models for now. I am also getting all my watches serviced. I have the five watches that Surf Monkey listed. I just received a watch today that has not been mentioned but is an extremely beautiful watch, a 944 in the Hamilton signed salesman display case. It's striking. I'm glad that Fred mentioned the Lassiter's List book on Hamilton's. I'll be looking into buying it. Thanks Fred and thanks guys for the wealth of information I've garnered from the message board. I currently have 11 Hamilton's.

Len

 

[Surf Monkey]

I have the five watches that Surf Monkey listed.

Interesting. Do you have pictures of them that you can post?

My criteria for that list were much the same as you outlined. As a novice Hamilton collector generally I'm inclined to stick with the better known examples. Less opportunity to make mistakes, I think. But I'm fascinated to read the wide ranging comments others have posted so far. Some of these rarer suggestions are very interesting to research. I'm also enjoying the discussion of watches outside of the 16 and 18 sizes.

 

[LTaupier]

I have photos of some of them, mostly of the movement. I'll go through what I have and take more photos tomorrow. Then I'll post them.

The other advantage of collecting the more popular watches is their cost. Some of the models mentioned are in the thousands and way out of my price range. As it is I went ouside my budget and picked up a beautiful 950B in a model 8 case. I just got it back from being serviced. In the last 12 hours it's only varied 2 seconds in the crown up position. I'm thrilled.

Len

 

[Robert Sweet]

As it is I went ouside my budget and picked up a beautiful 950B in a model 8 case.
Len

I find it a bit unusual to see the 950B in a No. 8 case since it was first used in the introduction of the 992 Elinvar in 1931. The No. 8 case is also correct for the non-Elinvar 950, but not the 950B. I mentioned this not to be critical, but only for the benefits of those that are not familiar with the correct factory cases.

Robert

 

[rrwatch]

I'll have to nominate one of my favorites, the 16 size 21 jewel Grade 994.

 

[Ralph Porter]

Yes, yes, that's certainly one of the great ones Ed. Is it in one of the early cases with a Hamilton-marked cuvet?

Ralph

 

[LTaupier]

I find it a bit unusual to see the 950B in a No. 8 case since it was first used in the introduction of the 992 Elinvar in 1931. The No. 8 case is also correct for the non-Elinvar 950, but not the 950B. I mentioned this not to be critical, but only for the benefits of those that are not familiar with the correct factory cases.

Robert

Robert. You're absolutely correct. I mixed up my watches. The 950B has a model A case. My 992E has the model 8 case. I just sent it off to Ed for service and had that 8 in my mind. Sorry.

Len

 

[rrwatch]

Ralph,
Yes, its in one of the Hamilton marked cases.
We have a factory listing for the Grade 994 that stated that it was available ONLY in Hamilton marked cases, but I do not know if that was true over the entire period that the Model 994 was made.

 

[Robert Sweet]

Ralph,
Yes, its in one of the Hamilton marked cases.
We have a factory listing for the Grade 994 that stated that it was available ONLY in Hamilton marked cases, but I do not know if that was true over the entire period that the Model 994 was made.

Ed,

According to the "Halligan Files", the following number of 994 movements were sold uncased:

• PS-----1917-------7
• LS-----1917------52
• PS-----1918------37
• LS-----1918-----149
• LS-----1919------54

Robert

 

[Ralph Porter]

Thanks Ed. The 994 I have is in a triple hinge tall stem Fahy's case marked "Hamilton Quality", and "Hamilton Watch Co. Lancaster, Pa" in a circle on the outside of the cuvette.
In case this watch isn't in your database the movement sn is 1153575 and it has a double-sunk Montgomery dial with "Hamilton" in script.

Ralph

 

[Ralph Porter]

Thanks Robert, mine is a lever set and I didn't know the 994 was also produced as a pendant set movement.

by the way I wasn't able to find that list of Hamilton RR models, maybe it will turn up later.

Ralph

 

[124Spider]

If you want to step out of the box the model 21 Chronometer was an unparalleled triumph. Nothing made by anyone else came close. They made a lot of them so they are not too pricey and a steal for what they are. The model 22 is also a fabulous achievement, in either the large watch or box mount. These are too large to be pocket watches.

My Model 21, entirely stock, has neither gained nor lost any measurable time this year. My Model 22 has gained 10.5 seconds this year. Not bad for two mechanical clocks, almost 65 and 67 years old, respectively.

 

[StanJS]

It depends on your definition of best...

You could look for a 932. They only had 16 jewels but they have a lot of "benefits".

1) Since there were only 600 made they will increase in value.
2) Low serial number.
3) A piece of early Hamilton history.
4) An early, quality, railroad watch.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Surf Monkey]

You could look for a 932. They only had 16 jewels but they have a lot of "benefits".

Yes, but what are the chances of finding one that a reasonably casual collector can afford? Slim, I'm guessing.

 

[StanJS]

Slim? Yes. Zero? No.

I found that beat up one online (remember Yahoo Auctions?) for $150 four+ years ago. I'm getting closer to restoring it. I have a donor dial.

The story is here: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=26810

Last weekend I bid $2500 for a Patek minute repeater at a local auction of an early 1900s MA governor's (Frank G. Allen) estate. I always wanted one of those. It went for $13,000 plus 15% buyer's premium plus 6.25% MA sales tax. Ya can't fault a guy for tryin'.

In short, if you aren't looking and you aren't bidding/offering, you aren't in the game.

Cheers,
Stan

 

[Surf Monkey]

In short, if you aren't looking and you aren't bidding/offering, you aren't in the game.

Yes, I completely agree with that. It's something I've learned over the years of collecting cameras, books and other items.

One thing I can say now that I've been paying attention to railroad watches is that bargains are still out there. Unlike some collectables, where both the best and mediocre examples are already over priced, you can still find some amazing deals on railroad watches. I don't know how long this situation will last, but for the moment it still seems feasible to build up a decent collection of examples found at reasonable prices.

 

[rschussel]

The 12 size 945 lacks a serial number.

In 12 size the Masterpiece was possibly Hamiltons best. The 400 was originally from Illinois stock .

Bob

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Bob, I really like the 923 and some of those came in cases marked "masterpiece." The 921 is a nearly identical watch with two less jewels that I also like a lot.

Getting really small, I picked up a very nice open face 988 in a Hamilton marked case in Kissimmee. I had never seen one before.

 

[Jim Haney]

Bob, I really like the 923 and some of those came in cases marked "masterpiece." The 921 is a nearly identical watch with two less jewels that I also like a lot.

Getting really small, I picked up a very nice open face 988 in a Hamilton marked case in Kissimmee. I had never seen one before.

Tom,
Were the cases or movements marked Masterpiece? I haven't seen any marked cases.

I bought a 988 GOLD box set with matching papers serial number 2000432 Case #6534727 from Gene P. a while back. How close is yours?

 

[mdloggins]

my favorite five are:

Hamilton 950b, 16s w/RRS-23 jewel porcelain dial in model A case
Hamilton Masterpiece (922 movement) in 18k case, 12s
Hamilton 923, 10s in a 14 or 18k case, 10s
Hamilton Tycoon (grade 400) in 18k case, 12s
Hamilton 900 12s in 14k gold case

 

[Surf Monkey]

my favorite five are:

Hamilton 950b, 16s w/RRS-23 jewel porcelain dial in model A case
Hamilton Masterpiece (922 movement) in 18k case, 12s
Hamilton 923, 10s in a 14 or 18k case, 10s
Hamilton Tycoon (grade 400) in 18k case, 12s
Hamilton 900 12s in 14k gold case

Interesting. Do you have pictures of the Tycoon? I've never seen an example before.

 

[mdloggins]

http://library.******.com/catalogs/ham1932/page2.jpg

 

[Surf Monkey]

http://library.******.com/catalogs/ham1932/page2.jpg

Oops. Forbidden URL.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

Surf Monkey -- the Tycoon series featured the grade 400 movement in one of four 18K gold case styles. The movement was modified from the Illinois "Illini" grade 528, with a few upgraded features. The Bok, Pulitzer and Carnegie cases were made by Schwab & Wuischpard (white or yellow gold) and the Nobel case was made by Solidarity (green or yellow gold). The grade 400 movement was also used for award watches cased in gold-filled Wadsworth cases.

Shown below, from left to right, are the Bok, Carnegie, Nobel and Pulitzer.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Very nice. The deco numbers on the Nobel are particularly attractive.

 

[RRPocketWatch]

I've been bouncing this same question around for awhile and figured I'd throw my hay penny in (as I am now collecting these, I don't even have 2 cents).
A solid inexpensive Hamilton start, and what I'm up to is:

940 21J Marked Motor Barrel Adjusted 5 Positions
974 17J
996 19J
990 21J
992 21J
992B ***I want a Mod 2 Case & 576 Dial***
4992B 22J
Model 23 Chronograph 19J

I would not say any or all of these are the best, however every one on here is affordable, all are of the finest quality time keepers without the price tag of some of the scarse or extreme high end or solid gold small stuff. I am also working on Waltham:

M1908/16S
15J, 17J, 19J Riverside, 21J Crescent St., 23J Vanguard
M1892/18S****All in my Train Cases****
17J Appleton Tracy & Co.
17J 2 Tone in display case
19J/21J Crescent St.
21J 845 5P
23J Vanguard 5P

When I have these will stop, study, read, enjoy, be happy, maybe buy now and then. Who am I kidding, I'll be stuck buying these for the rest of my life..........I AM AN ADDICT!

 

[Tom McIntyre]

Jim,

This is a picture of the case mark on my 923 Masterpiece. I will check the 988 as soon as I get a chance.

 

[Surf Monkey]

Seeing the engravings on the back of these Masterpiece watches is half the fun. The the 923 movements are incredible. Every surface is so designed... as opposed to the decidedly more engineered look of the 922 and 920.

 

[l3up]

I'll have to nominate one of my favorites, the 16 size 21 jewel Grade 994.

Ed,
I with you about the Hamilton 994 it's a killer show stopper watch.
Weldon

 

[HUDD]

My choice would be ...

938
940
942
944
946

All 18 size I know but I prefer the full plate Hamiltons with great damasceen patterns. I would also consider the 936 motor barrel model for inclusion but that would be 6 choices !!

Hudd